Let's Talk About Confo Shows

So, confo breeders...some of you from the old EV might remember confo shows. We with Deluxe accounts used to be able to create a confo arena and do one or two shows in it per day (can't remember), but without those shows, our conformation has been mainly a matter of breeding for personal reasons...the concern has been raised that it doesn't carry much benefit other than breeder pride. Therefore, I am starting this thread for us confo breeders to create a new proposal for the suggestion forum regarding the restoration of conformation shows which will have already been carefully considered so Abbey doesn't have such a mess on her hands.

Here is my PERSONAL opinion as to how the confo shows should function:

- New specialty affected by confo: This is a suggestion someone made with which I do not agree, and I think the confo shows should be completely separate. I like my racing Arabians and driving Vanners...and I think something like this would be too complicated, both coding-wise and other-wise.

- Old system: I did not like it, and I don't think the current EV economy could support it. I think we should have universal confo shows accessible from the town. The game would automatically create them separately from the original shows, and there would be no more than ten of them running each day, to ensure we would have enough entries to make it worth our while.

- AWARDS!!! I think we should receive money and they should give out more player points than regular shows, but no stats. If you do not agree, explain why, please, but this is my reasoning: Riding schools are a better way for confo breeders to gain stats, because we are at a disadvantage in regular shows, and we could still enter our horses for five hours in riding schools and five in confo shows if we want and gain stats at the same pace as confo breeders. We would, however, be at a disadvantage if we did not gain an extra bonus in player points because riding schools apparently do not give out player points, as I realize by the lack of gain in my player points box on my homepage. Also, stat breeders are not going to care about confo if they don't have an incentive to work toward horses that will do well in confo shows. New breeders can just work on stats until their confo is high enough to compete in confo shows so they will still progress, but not run into excessive competition.

- Factors influencing wins:
...I do not think "luck" should be one of them, because honestly, conformation functions by a set of rules specifically listed in a breed standard. Perhaps this could be a tie-breaker, to account for variations in opinions between judges.
...Stats: I do not think these should have any impact, because it would be an unfair advantage for stat breeders. If confo does not affect specialty shows, stats should not affect confo shows.
...Conformation: Well, duh...this needs no explaining...
...Training: I know this builds stats, but I cannot find any other benefit to it...this would be an excellent way to give it more meaning, as poorly trained horses would not cooperate for a halter, and therefore the results of the show would be affected by training level.
...Care: This was a factor in confo shows in the old EV, and I agree with it, because quality of care will affect how well a horse does in conformation.

- Structure of showing system: I think to make each show fair and maximize the number of people who can win, we should have three levels of awards. The highest would be Best in Show, which would go to the best overall horse with the best award. The middle level would be for Best of Breed, which would go, obviously, to the winner of the breed. The smallest awards would be based on either training level, player level, or maybe a special experience level gained from simply participating in conformation shows (I want people to give me feedback on this one), and for each level there would be first, second, and third place winners. The Best of Breed would be selected from the first place class winners, and the Best in Show from the Best of Breed winners.

Alrighty, I think I've done enough talking, so let's start hearing the feedback! If we can tweak this idea, we can bring it back to the suggestion forum. Please do not hesitate to ask questions if you are unclear about anything I said...

Last edited on 2016-12-29 at 13:48:45 by silverfoxmar2009

I have a clarification question, and likely more depending on what the answer is:

Are you trying to have Confo shows work within the current showing system, or be an entirely different system in itself? (Sorry if this is dumb, I entered the game after new EV was implemented)

That's okay, Ducky...I don't believe there's such a thing as a stupid question! :)

I'm proposing that this be a completely separate addition to the game, sort of like the way the auction house now exists separately from private bidding. That way it doesn't interfere with the current game system, and I think it would be easier for Abbey to code than a complex modification to the current system.

I just wanted to ask... what puts you as a confo breeder at a disadvantage in shows compared to a stat breeder? As long as the horse is low in it's non-speciality areas and treated/trained, there's nothing stopping it progressing through the showing levels. Your horses would progress at the same rate as any other horse would, if not better if you've bred early for conformation and bred down stats in the process. The only difference is your starting point in shows if you breed young.

Personally I think luck should be involved in a conformation/in-hand type show. Nothing stops horses playing up in any competition, if luck affects regular competitions, it should affect conformation based shows too. Training level could play an effect here too, a fully trained horse with 59 confo versus a barely trained horse with 61 confo has a chance of winning.

Surely "Best in Show" should include stats as well as conformation? Further assurance of the horse being "best". Personally I think if conformation shows were added then there should be tiers grouped by conformation. Then everyone could compete within their conformation range and not be dominated by 90+ conformation horses- which is the problem I see with it. If not everyone is given a chance to compete in confo shows like you can in regular shows, they're not going to be very popular and end up with only a handful of players showing.

Last edited on 2016-12-29 at 14:13:20 by maplɛ

^ I agree with what maple said about best in show including stats, since the horse would be considered "best". I wish it could also include color/pattern rarity, but I know that there's no way to implement that... unless there was an overall rarity system in place, but that's for another suggestion another time.

@Maple: The issue I've run into is I have to focus on two things, and not just one...it becomes a disadvantage because, while I am working on stats, I am not focused on them, and so my confo horses struggle to compete against stat horses because that area is just slightly weaker enough to let the stat horses beat mine most of the time.

I'll offer you a bit of my own reasoning on the rest of it, while I'm at it:

As for luck, I am thinking tie-breaker...a judge's opinion always comes into play when two animals are neck-and-neck with everything else, but it wouldn't be as much a factor as in a specialty show, which could just be affected by the performance of a given horse on that particular day.

We are TOTALLY on the same page for the training idea!!! :D

I do agree you may have a point about the Best in Show award...stats could be a nice bonus prize for it...

...however, while I believe it could only work with tiers (without levels of prizes, there is not enough incentive for most people to participate...there need to be plenty of prize opportunities), I am not as certain about the confo tiers. The training and quality of care would create a factor by which 80 confo horses could beat 90 confo horses, anyhow (note the incentive for people to train and take good care of their horses), because you could have an untrained 95 confo horse beaten squarely by, say, a Level 10 trained 85 confo. In this kind of competition, poor behavior could get an animal dismissed from the arena, so that totally makes sense...perhaps one point of boost per level of training for the confo would be reasonable, and if there's still a tie, the trained horse wins?

To clarify, the 85 confo horse with Level 10 training counts as a 95 confo horse just like the 95 confo one, but the 95 confo loses because it hasn't been trained. Of course, that's just an idea to throw around, as an example.

Just because a stat breeder breeds for stats doesn't mean they don't take conformation into account as well. Some do colour as well conformation and stats, it's not really that difficult to account for two things at once. I breed stats primarily but I also keep conformation up, just because it's a long term goal for stat breeders doesn't mean it's not happening at all. Besides, you only have to check conformation pairings once (or twice if you find something better), stat breeders have to constantly make sure their pairings are on track for stat gain, etc. If you want to say one thing is harder than the other, surely over a lifetime you'd consider stats to be harder to keep track of, and an expensive mistake if you get it wrong in terms of showing and selling foals from those horses. While conformation is a niche market where higher is better regardless of stats, on a game where 90% of players are stat breeders or other.

From a showing perspective, you can breed a horse to the best confo you want and still be able to show it as long as it's not fed something like hay cubes all it's life, which not only prevents the horse from doing well in shows, but also has an effect on subsequent generations. It's not a conformation fault, it's an ONLY conformation breeding fault.

I didn't say stats should be a bonus prize for it. I said stats should be considered when judging a "best in show" horse.

About conformation tiers, I was suggesting something along the lines of groups per 10 conformation points, much like we have our N1, L1, R1, etc, showing levels. Like I said before, having tiers will give players a chance to compete within their own conformation levels without the results always being skewed towards 90+ horses all the time. Groups of 50-60, 60-70, 80-90 and etc would work just fine imo. Training and care should also play a role in the judging of confo shows, and the aspect of luck on top of that. I'm also of the opinion that non-speciality stats should be judged as well, of how well the horse is suited to a discipline of any kind, but not necessarily be dependant on who has the highest stats out of the group. I feel it would be a fair system to allow pedigree and foundation horses (who aren't bad in conformation- just average) to be able to compete in the same shows without the odds being too skewed either way.

There is no level 10 training, level 5 is the max. I imagine training would have the same effect on confo shows as it does in discipline shows. Luck would help in the event as of a tiebreaker but not to the extent of actual behaviour. They are just pixels and lines of code at the end of the day.

That's not what I was trying to say, Maple...I do stats in addition for confo, but it's just a reverse priority; stat breeders put stats first and confo breeders put confo first, regardless of whether or not they breed for both. My apologies for not making that clear...I know you do have some horses with a good balance between stats and confo, just like I have some with pretty good stats. It's just that you would be more likely to beat me in stats and I would be more likely to beat you in confo because of differences in our methods.

(Just as a note...the hay cubes are easy to get around by converting and re-converting the discipline, so some of us confo breeders don't worry about it until right before we breed. Sometimes it's just that we are trying to catch up the stats because we have to build them from outbloods that we bought from people who did not pay attention to stats. Beggars can't be choosers, and it's hard to get new lines.)

Ah, okay...well, still, it's Best in Show, and I do consider stats as part of the overall horse evaluation when buying even as a confo breeder, so that's fair.

The idea of non-specialty stats is interesting, too, and it could be a way to open the stat-building up for people who want versatile lines rather than specialty lines; I know there are some people who like to breed that way, so I'll leave it open for others to comment on what they think about that. I did not know the training maxed out at Level 5, any which way, and so I guess each level might have to count for more in the confo arena to make my idea work...

Well, I'll come back to this discussion later...I have to go buy milk and eggs, do some laundry and dishes, and apply for scholarships, LOL!

I'm having a horrible time focusing today, so this took waaaay too long for me to type, haha.

I'm also going to ask what Maple did, as a short continuation of the thread in the suggestion post. You said you don't want conformation to give you guys an advantage, you want it to simply eliminate the disadvantage - I'm sorry if I'm blind, but what disadvantage?

If you're simply saying that because you are solely focused on conformation, with stats taken into consideration just because you need them to be able to compete in shows, then it's not a disadvantage. You have the exact same opportunity to build stats at the same rate as everyone else, including the stat breeders. I can understand maybe not having as great stud opportunities, as there aren't a ton of conformation breeders our there so you may end up breeding with slightly lower confo horses than you expected. But stat breeders face that exact same problem. I have a lot of horses that don't have proper pairs, because there just aren't the right studs out there for them, or the studs that are out there are far too overbred. If I breed them into my lines, I simply end up with a foal that I can't find a partner for because there are tons of horses out there that have the same lines, and I don't inbreed in any capacity. I struggle to find these pairs and sometimes have to just take the stat hit in order to get a well bred, short lined horse because of what's available.

So, to combat this, I start my own lines of horses so that I have breeding options available. I have to wait the five months for them to go from 0y-19y when I breed them, but they get there eventually with enough patience. But, to put it bluntly, my horses that I've spent hours on will have just as much of an advantage in shows as your horses that you've spent time pairing for proper conformation - if they're in the same stat bracket. You don't have any sort of disadvantage in shows the same as I have no advantage in shows. We're both doing the same for our horses each day - treating/training/etc. If you have a 98% confo horse with 285 stats, it's going to do the same as my horse with 65% confo and 285 stats, and we'll both get beaten by the horse that 79% confo with 298 stats, unless luck is on our side.

If your horses are truly doing worse in shows against horses at the same stat level, I would suggest looking at your treating methods. Sometimes I don't realize if my horses have higher non-specialty stats, so that even though they might be at the top of the stat bracket, they just won't do as well. Or if I'm feeding hay cubes - I just skip showing altogether, and only do the riding school, until I convert them to their right specialty and stats (I only stated this because you said it's the same thing you do, and it does help them boost up rather well).

"Recently, I switched from riding schools to showing, however, and I ran into the same issue I did on the old EV...because I am not focused solely on stats, I might break even or make a very small profit, but my horses don't do well enough to win very many first place awards or gain very many stats; in most cases, I have to settle for second or third place, which have their limitations, so I do not progress as quickly in the game as stat breeders do." -- Every stat breeder goes through this as well though, it's not because you're a conformation breeder. I can show you pages and pages of my horses that will place 2nd or 3rd, or even 1st, and not gain stats. This especially happens when I don't hand show, but use the auto show tool (aka, the bane of my existence as a stat breeder). I have to personally show around 50 horses each day because I only show them at the top of their stat bracket, and need to make sure that they are in shows that run at 5 entries, rather than 12+, or less than 4, or they have a low chance of winning and gaining stats. It's not an advantage for stat breeders, it's just more hard work I put in to make sure my horses get wins and gain stats.

Finally, long term breeders can have an advantage, and do in a lot of cases. They have multi-generation horses that have either high stats or high confo, and can stud and sell for more because of that. But I'd also pay more money to get an average stat horse with a small pedigree, average confo, and nice color than I would for a horse that has 50 breedings under it's belt. I pay for those small, private lines because they're worth more to me. I would buy a well kept foundation or second gen horse in a heartbeat over one with extensive lines that I see everywhere. I also create my own foundation lines, as I've said before, because I like creating my own breeding options and seeing how well I can do. I've been on EV for over a year, though I had a huge hiatus in the middle, but I think my horses are rather nice for the time I've spent with them (if we're speaking only on foundation stock here, as I don't want to take credit for foals that come directly from other people, or even other studs, as I've hardly done work to own another of a breeder's lovely creations). But I'm hoping I'm on the right track to have herds that will turn out very well down the line. If you go and look at some of the long-term breeders on here that started from foundation (/pokes Mapes) the amount of work they've put into their multi-generation horses is crazy extensive, and something they should be proud of, but it doesn't keep us from catching up with them!

I know hay cubes are a work around but complaining about being at a disadvantage because you're a conformation breeder just seems a bit moot when there is no disadvantage set by the game.

I wasn't saying non-speciality should be counted as in more is better, I meant more in the sense of speciality counted. Non-spec that is low with high (or higher) speciality stats I feel should count in judging as proof of careful breeder. I disagree with with versatile lines, while some players might breed for it, a well-rounded horse gets you nowhere in showing or selling horses outside of the niche market.

It's just that you would be more likely to beat me in stats and I would be more likely to beat you in confo because of differences in our methods.
-- I'm relatively sure that my conformation pairing methods are the same as yours, and if not, they're the same as what Kahzie does. I write out all my foundation pairs' conformations, color the highest level confos in green and worst in red (normally I set numbers for high/low ends and color anything outside of those numbers). It seems the best way to get the best confos for each of the foals, and I often see positive trends in confo because of this.

(Just as a note...the hay cubes are easy to get around by converting and re-converting the discipline, so some of us confo breeders don't worry about it until right before we breed. Sometimes it's just that we are trying to catch up the stats because we have to build them from outbloods that we bought from people who did not pay attention to stats. Beggars can't be choosers, and it's hard to get new lines.)
-- I use haycubes on my own foals/foundation horses, and occasionally on horses that I buy that just aren't cutting it. But the second they start eating hay cubes is the second that I stop showing them. This is not a disadvantage for conformation breeders, cause stat breeders do it too. Yes, hay cubes put you at a disadvantage for shows, but that's why there's the riding school. Any breeder that knows about the benefits of low non-specialty stats knows that you shouldn't show a horse if they're eating them. Even if the stats may seem high while on hay cubes, they aren't. Stat breeders have to deal with this just as much as everyone else.

The idea of non-specialty stats is interesting, too, and it could be a way to open the stat-building up for people who want versatile lines rather than specialty lines; I know there are some people who like to breed that way, so I'll leave it open for others to comment on what they think about that.
-- Let's not spread this as a proper method of raising horses, because it's just going to confuse people. A rounded out, 'versatile' horse is not a good horse. It's a horse that is going to continually do terrible in shows and pull in no money. If people breed like this generation after generation, it's going to ruin every subsequent generation. It's one thing to start a horse out this way (look at 75% of my foundation herds and you'll see they'd be considered well-rounded because they eat hay cubes), but I would never willingly choose to breed a horse like this, because the show career of the foals would be over before it began.

I think thier is a lot of good ideas here like a best of breed shows and conformation shows separated into categories as well as none speciality stat competition.

*brain dies*

@Maple: I see what you mean about the stats, but I don't see the point of it, seeing as that's really rather what regular shows judge, isn't it? Since the brackets now place horses with other horses within 50 to 100 stats of them, the shows mainly would judge based on specialty distributon. I don't think you'll get confo breeders to go for that one unless it is a tie breaker, just like you won't get stat breeders to go for confo in regular shows unless it is just a tie breaker. Stats and *luck* determine regular shows, and if you start making them too heavy a factor in conformation shows, you take away the purpose of making conformation shows which evaluate training and conformation separate. At that point, you may as well add conformation and training into the factors for regular shows and be done with that. We've already been there, and it's way too controversial.

No, the idea that an established breeder can show up with the same confo as a new breeder who just bought their foundie horse and win based on better specialty stat distribution is going to lead to the same debate as before...it allows for too great an advantage to give anyone incentive to become a new confo breeder, when the simplest way to maintain the incentive to build stats would be to, say, limit horses to five confo shows and tell breeders the other five shows had to be regular shows or riding school hours.



@Nittrous: Okay, I'm dead...you can stop writing now, LOL! Guess I can't talk on that one, though... :/

I don't think I can answer everything but I guess I can try....

I always use the Autoshow...I have no time for anything else by the time I am done with everything else on the game, usually. Try showing 300 horses by hand every day while taking a college-level Calculus course when math is your weakest subject... :P I guess that means I am just going to show when I can afford not to build stats (i.e. when they turn, like, 15 years old and their stats are all still good), but the fact remains that confo doesn't really mean anything in this game, and I have spent a lot of time breeding for it to find out that the benefit of doing so is gone...a moot point on the old EV which had confo shows.

I still think, taking this into consideration, that confo shows should give out player points, the one thing that riding schools do not seem to give out, and in greater amount than regular shows instead of the stats.

I am still trying to figure out how brackets like what you and Maple suggest would provide incentive to IMPROVE confo, considering people would only have to enter horses against others with similar conformation. If they don't have to improve conformation that much in order to have a better chance against other confo horses just like they have to improve specialty stats in order to win in other shows, then again, what is the purpose of conformation shows? I could see doing it by a confo breeder's experience ranking that was designed to allow people to earn their way into the next level, but maintain competition against others with a similar level of progression in the game as themselves. For instance, the number of points you had to earn by confo showing would be enough per day to give new breeders with foundation horses plenty of years to raise those horses and produce a new showing generation with better confo. Winners could earn those points more quickly and according to the conformation of the horse so as to move them up to the next level faster in a way which would remove them from the competition for players who needed more time to work on conformation, thus allowing thos players to earn points toward the next level.

...An example: I am a breeder with lots of 80+ and 90+. Odd Joe has lots of 60 confo, and Mary Lou has lots of 50 confo. I might win against them at confo shows, but I gain points ten times as fast, so I beat them a few times in Level 1, then move up to Level 2, leaving Odd Joe his shot at glory. By the time he has won enough times to move up to Level 2, Mary has bred a whole new generation of 60 confo horses and I've already moved up to Level 3 or higher, so I won't be beating Odd Joe's new generation of 70 confo horses. It's sort of like how Abbey has the stat system set up...every 50 to 100 stats moves you up a grade, so you might have trounced your N1 competitors with your amazing foundie, but now you are N2 and no longer competing against them, so they now have their shot at winning.

*I hope that all makes sense.*

I like the idea of not so much a monthly Best in Show award (I think that should still be the top horse in a tiered confo show), but considering that would already be hard to get and therefore stats could be a significant factor in determining which breed wins, I could see some kind of monthly championship awarded to the best overall winner for that month or something...I'd just say let's let Abbey work that out and decide how to go about it. :P

^ Off the subject, but I had another thought because of the dicussion of stat distribution, so thank you for getting me thinking about that guys! :)

A good question we might want to consider would be this: Should the wins be based on the overall average conformation, or should it be based more on the balance of conformation?

I mean, that 80 confo horse might be a much higher average than the 60 confo, but if that 80 confo has 7 perfects and 1 poor and the 60 confo has all eight traits listed as good, well...should the 80 win, or should the 60 win? IMO, it should be the 60. :P

*This might be the key to tackling Maple's concern about the 90 confo horses dominating, because most 90+ confo do not have every trait ranked the same way...and the "luck" factor could also come in here because it would account for the difference in opinion between the judge who favored the *nicest average* and the judge who favored the *nicest balance*

Last edited on 2016-12-29 at 18:53:54 by silverfoxmar2009

I have the attention span of a goldfish, so I'm using italics again to quote you or I won't remember half of what I've written. XD

I always use the Autoshow...I have no time for anything else by the time I am done with everything else on the game, usually. Try showing 300 horses by hand every day while taking a college-level Calculus course when math is your weakest subject... :P
-- I have over 300 horses at the moment as well, but I don't show them all every day. I said I probably show about 50 of them, and I only do it by hand when I have the spare time to. Autoshow works just fine if you go with the first thing I said, and show only at the top of your stat bracket. Doing so allows your horses to have the advantage of the highest stats allowed in their grade, and automatically gives them a better chance to win at their show. I suggest using the most expensive or least entries just to help, though really any of the option work.

If we look at my stallion, Hermes. He's sitting at 307s at grade N4. Grade N4 is -supposed- to stop at 300s, but because some of the shows that gave him those stats ran after cron did, he was allowed to remain in the lower grade and surpass the stat level for the grade. I showed him yesterday when he was at 299s, within his grade level. He placed in 9/10 of his shows (third or higher) because he was at the top of his grade. Only 5 of those 9 shows awarded him stats, giving him +8 stats overall. Each of those shows went off with around 11 entries, but he managed to place in 9/10 because he was in the upper end of his grade. I showed him again tonight because he is still over his grade level. Tomorrow he'll probably be around 315s, and in grade N5, which goes up to 350s, so I won't show him again until he hits around 340s, earned by the riding school and daily training. If he ends up surpassing that 340-350s mark and gets pushed into L1 shows, I won't show him until he's up to 390s. Even using auto-show (as many people do, and I do on occasion when I can't be bothered with hand showing) he would have placed in a lot of the shows he did yesterday, because his stats were just so high for his level.

I'm also testing if hay cubes + riding school and not showing at all, is equal to specialty treats and showing and so far all the data points to yes. Your horses can do just as well with never showing a day in their lives, so long as they're fed hay cubes, trained, and put in the riding school. Then all you have to worry about is switching them back to their proper spec before you breed them. It works quite well, and we're all lucky that the riding school does pull in a rather substantial income when you don't use your own (something I've learned only recently, hehe).


I still think, taking this into consideration, that confo shows should give out player points, the one thing that riding schools do not seem to give out, and in greater amount than regular shows instead of the stats.
- - I don't pay too much attention to player points, but I wouldn't be against an idea such as this. Depending on the difficulty that conformation shows could provide, player points might be a worthwhile way to show the work put into winning conformation shows.

I am still trying to figure out how brackets like what you and Maple suggest would provide incentive to IMPROVE confo, considering people would only have to enter horses against others with similar conformation.
- - It's not the brackets that help to improve confo, it's the value of the horse that does. If people are going to pay more for a well conformed horse, then breeders will focus on conformation. As it stands, stats are what people pay for, with confo and color generally being a bonus to that. Confo can play a bigger part if there are conformation shows, as then people would pay more for say, a 500s 80% confo horse than they would for a 500s 50% confo horse. It's supply and demand, really. A supply of better conformed horses will be needed when there is a demand for higher confo horses. That demand could stem from the ability to enter conformation shows (if they earn more player points, or more money, as an incentive to want to enter them). If shows didn't offer prize money and stats in return for entering, people probably wouldn't enter. If they only offered stats, people still may not, as it costs quite a bit of money to enter shows to not have a chance to get any in return.


As for your example, I may be a little lost, but I think I get the gist. You're saying that rather than brackets, group all of the horses together at the start, and make conformation level tie in more to the breeder, rather than the horses themselves. So you have a lot of well conformed horses, you gain quick 'confo exp' and move up through the levels as a breeder quickly, and strive to get to whatever the max confo showing level is. Someone else starts out with foundations around 50 confo, stay at that lower level for a while because they aren't conformed as nicely, but their second generation ends up at 60 confo, and they level up a bit faster, and move on to the mid levels, so new players with level 50 confo can try to build themselves up and so on and so forth. I feel like it could work, but what happens when you reach that top tier of confo, simply continue showing in the top tier level against the other strong confos? What if someone forgets to lock, all their good confo horses die off, and they're left with 50 confo foundies again... would they still be forced to show at that top tier confo level, and not win until they get back to the high confos? It's an interesting concept, and could work as long as all the bases are covered.



Also, I'd really like to challenge you to a conformation building challenge, as I've been wanting to attempt to create better conformed horses, I've just never focused on it. If we ended up working on our own little confo herds together, at least we'd know in the end we'd have another breeder to match our horses up with - really my main concern with confo breeding at the moment is the fact that it comes down to 2-3 studs in every breed, and they're so extensively overbred that you can't get away from their lines once you're in them. Interested in maybe starting some confo foundies and seeing how well they build up to test the difficulty of it?