conformation affecting show results

As was just confirmed by Abbey, conformation does not affect showing at all. I (and many others) were under the impression that it did affect show placings, so my suggestion is that conformation scores should play a role in determining show placings.

I feel that it should have an effect greater than the "luck" component that is already in the showing equation, but should affect less than the training level. I'm not sure exactly what the number would be, as we don't know the exact formula that is used.

As far as how to determine the effect that it would have, that's I'm unsure of. I do think it should be more than just the overall average of conformation (though that might be easier). Perhaps each score (awful, good, excellent, poor) is worth a certain amount, and those totals are what is taken into account?

So say...
awful = 0 points
good = 1 point
excellent = 2 points
perfect = 3 points

with 0 being for awful rather than negative, it doesn't punish people who don't breed for conformation, but it DOES reward those who do focus on conformation.

Again, my main suggestion is conformation should play a role in determining show results, my musings on how to determine the effect are just one possible way to do that - I'm sure there are other ways as well.

I would totally support this if conformation was reworked in a way where it isn't such a huge disadvantage to newer players that only have access to very average conformation scores in foundation horses. As things stand now, it would take years (actual years, considering a game horse's lifetime consists of about 5.5 months) of breeding foundation horses to get them from good to perfect.

I know that I would be super discouraged to know that my horses, which I've carefully selected and am diligently training, would be disadvantaged in shows by their conformation.. which I would have no way to improve outside of months/years of trial and error through breeding.

I'd like to point out that it's kinda suppose to take years- it's not meant to be easy. I started new as well, like everyone else, and thought I would never get rare TBs before the recode- when the only pattern they had was roan! Now I have plenty of patterns in my herd. It just takes persistence.
I support this. There aren't that many confo breeders anyway, compared to stats and color, so adding confo to showing would be great- but only if it's a small advantage, so people don't end up having to breed for all three if they (like I said in a different post): breed mainly for color, show to profit, but now have to breed for confo as well TO profit in shows. :)

I totally get that it isn't supposed to be easy and it should take time and strategy to decelop herds with exceptional conformation. My issue is that when you start at 50 and you can only increase that maybe by 5 if you're lucky every 5 months.. it's just discouraging. And would be even more so if I knew that my horses were disadvantaged in showing when matched up with horses from before the recode that have excellent or perfect confo, which was developed under a different system.

Last edited on 2016-12-27 at 16:15:50 by Aesthetic

I understand how hard it can be, so I see your argument :)
My beloved red roan TB (my first color goal) is now just a plain chestnut. All those attempts at breeding one with a limited budget were useless. *cri*

My issue is that I really want to breed for confo, I want to improve my horses. I admire and respect the work it took for all the confo breeders to get where they are. It just seems impossible given the way things are now if you're starting with foundation stock.

As someone starting a herd with foundation stock and aiming to increase conformation, I totally feel you Aesthetic.

That said, the current majority of horses with very high conformation also happen to be bred solely FOR conformation. Very few have high stats, and that's because the time it takes to earn stats wasn't an issue for conformation breeders on the old EV: they just bred the horses with the best confo as soon as they were old enough. There are, of course, some exceptions.

I'm doing the same thing: focusing on conformation before stats, and breeding my QH as soon as they are able and as many times as it takes to get the foal with the best results. I've only got a few second gen foals so far, but one of them has 66+ confo despite being from foundie parents. That's not amazing, but it's also much better than the average EC horse.

Everyone started with store horses, and the old system wasn't necessarily any easier to breed for confo with. If anything, it was harder because we just had words to give us an idea of where they were numerically speaking. Some pre-recode store horses do have amazing conformation, but that's a small minority. Most of the horses that appear on the "best conformation" list have very long pedigrees because that's usually what it takes to get good confo.

So it's not impossible, it'd just slow going if you're also focusing on stats (and/or color, since that's even more random chance thrown in to the equation!)

I get what you're saying, and it makes sense. I truly can see both sides, because I know it took tons of time and work and planning to get horses to a point where their conformation is super awesome. I'm not in any way trying to discredit those that have put in the time and money with their pre-recode horses that were transferred over, or to suggest that conformation should be something super easy to improve.

I know it wasn't easy on the old game, but if I remember correctly, it was possible to get Perfects on store horses. I think I remember buying a bunch of store horses and retaining the ones with Perfects and culling those without. Then, with a Perfect trait, you had a chance of the foal getting a Perfect, and over time you could breed strategically to better the weaker traits while keeping the strong traits strong. With the number system that we have now, although it's more realistic, it's just totally different. Based on the numbers, improvement will happen at a snail's pace. As I've said before, it's just really really discouraging when you're starting from scratch. :/ It's daunting to the point that I'm having second thoughts about sticking with the game because it would take so much time (again.. multiple years worth of time) to essentially play catch up if I want to develop horses with excellent conformation AND exceptional stats.

Back to your suggestion, I really really would love to see conformation affect showing because it just makes sense and it would be a great way to integrate conformation with competition.. but I think something would need to be done so newer players with foundation stock wouldn't be years behind the curve.

No support.

I remember we USED to have Conformation shows in the older version. And I realize it takes plenty of time and effort to breed a very well conformed horse. However I don't think it would be fair to make conformation play a factor in how well a horse competes in a show.

I know this is a little off topic but if people are so excited about Conformation, why doesn't someone suggest "Halter" or something as a new discipline...? And make confo play a role in how a horse does in that?

Again, I stress that in real life, a horse that is not built for a task will not out-compete one that is built for the task and has just as much training. It just isn't physiologically possible. Period.

(Yes, you have a biology major in the room!)

Therefore, I support, but I would like, per a recent thread, to reiterate an additional aspect of this...in real life you have, for example, the Thoroughbred breed bred for racing and the Clydesdale bred for hauling loads. They are very well suited to their own purposes, but not so well to each other's. Similarly, the Lipizzaner, which is bred to be especially capable of certain military maneuvers, should be able to outcompete both of them in dressage. Therefore, the advantage conformation gives should correlate with the suitability of the breed to the specialty.

As for the new breeder argument, I know there is a *that's not fair* argument, and I will stop to say a couple things I did last time.

Just so you know, we actually, legitimately, have this discussion from time to time in real life with rabbit breeding and showing. Simply out, the argument is, "New breeder's should have equal chances of winning to established breeders."

Now, let's stop and think a minute. Raptorfang described perfectly how I built confo on the old EV. Store horses with perfects are just a rumor to me...I have heard of them, but never seen any. I started with what probably equated to 50 confo on the old EV.

Nevertheless, I did the work and built up the confo for however long it took, and now I am where I am now.

Imagine if you were in my position and then some newbie came along and trounced you in shows with their first animals. This is where real life typically comes in...in rabbit showing, this rarely happens, but when it does, it usually is a very rare case of somebody "lucking out" on their starter lines. I've watched quite a few of these breeder's rise very rapidly to the top, then crash and burn HARD when they come to rely too heavily on their one or two initially successful animals...which generally means they inbreed WAY to much, something which is still possible to an extent on the game in spite of the block.

Why? Because they do not learn the lessons of the difficult uphill path that breeder's like me who started at the bottom with mediocre lines at best had to learn. I've been raising rabbits for eight years as of January 1, and I still have lines descended from my original purebreds. Have I found the results discouraging at times? Of course! I even have things like sudden, unexplained illnesses and predators that are not an issue in EV, things which cause my program to suffer serious setbacks, but I deal with it as it comes.

Now think about that and all I have had to endure to get through this point...and think how I would feel if new breeder's demanded I sell them animals from my top showing stock so the playing field would be even. No good breeder sells their best, so it won't happen, but I have seen people make this type of complaint, and the response from experienced breeders is always that your stunners are going to be the ones you breed, not the ones you buy.

Frankly, after doing all that work, I would find it unfair to NOT have an advantage over someone who was just getting started and had not put out the same amount of effort as myself. Conformation has an upper limit of how high we go, anyway, so with every generation, you vain on us. This may seem mean now, but sooner or later, you will be in the same boat and think the same way about the same new breeder complaints.

Besides, we have riding schools in the recode. If I am not mistaken, we didn't have them in the old EV, and they are the simple solution to when you want to build your stat advantage but are unable to compete with established breeders.

Just think how much more difficult this is for real life horse breeders who really do have to wait years for each generation to be ready to breed, anyhow...

Last edited on 2016-12-27 at 21:34:21 by silverfoxmar2009

No support. This is a *game*

I do not think it would be fair for new players if conformation payed a determining factor in comps as generally newbs have lesser access to higher quaity horses as they can be expensive (as they should be!). Thus including confo in showing ability limits new players in how well their starter horses will show. Possibly leading them to give up on the game if, for example, they feel they cant make money because their horses of average confo are not placing but they keep wasting money on entry fees which means they have less to save for upgrading their stock.

I agree that, yes, in real life, horses are suited better for certain tasks and that if a horse has poor conformation, then it will have a harder time doing the task. But again, this is a game. I think not including confo in show placing makes things more fair for *all.*

[2]@Nevermore: Game, yes, but supposed to resemble real life, and this whole thing started because confo breeders feel our work should count for something, too. Besides, I don't intend to be mean, but everybody has a different definition of *fair*, and I feel saying breeders who have dedicated years already to their lines have not earned a slight advantage is unfair. Kahzie is not proposing a huge advantage, just something like conformation being a tie breaker; as you said, it's just a game, and that would be a normal way for which a game to work.


Two reasons the argument is a moot point:

1. Long-term breeders from the old EV are not necessarily even going to be showing in the same class as the Foundies, and since the stats keep building, they will continue to be in a different class. Most of my horses are Regional classes right now, UNLESS they are Foundies, which have an average confo of 55. Those are the ones new breeders will compete against, so no advantage to me in the confo arena.

2. Riding schools! I never show if I need to make money and build stats...I send my horses to riding schools. These do not cost anything to enter, and they are excellent money makers and stat builders; there is no advantage for either confo or stats, so it's how I avoid getting beaten. I have caught up on both level and stats this way, as have other confo breeders...which also means we are not showing our lower stat, higher confo horses against new breeders to take a potential advantage. Personally, I won't even change this until my stats are where I want them.

I think it's pretty obvious this idea is somewhat controversial, but I would like to see an argument against it which takes into the consideration the fact that even if it is just a game, some of us have already put a good deal of work into it. It has to be fair to us, too.

*Okay, yes, I did intend to rant this time...note to the mods: I apologize for that, but I honestly felt it needed to be said. I'm done. I promise I will stop now. :/[/2]

Last edited on 2016-12-29 at 20:35:22 by silverfoxmar2009

I support. There should be some meaning of having a conformation in the game. If it doesn't affect how well horse perform in shows, then why it was added at all?

Well, I've read through the posts here, and I'm going to throw in a slightly different perspective on the whole situation, I hope. This is technically a breeding sim type game. Advantage should come from playing the dominant aspect of the game, right? Which means breeding. But the current system doesn't really offer much advantage for breeding, if you really think about it.

Now, I don't play this game the way a lot of people probably think it "should" be played, really, but I'll break it down for perspective. I don't care much about stats in general, and I never breed my horses, because I simply don't like to (personal preference, and you'll never really change my mind on that one). I have a very small herd of horses; I don't sell and I don't buy from players. As soon as one horse dies, I pick up a new one, usually a foundation out of the Rescue Center (If I can find a color I like in the two breeds I prefer) or a store horse if I'm short on time or there are no Rescue horses in the breeds I'm looking for. I don't take a horse below age 3 because I don't see the point of foals. I give all my horses treats for their discipline - alternating between the two, but not really caring enough to actually know if any of the horses are even. I train them every day in an arena set for their specialty and level. I show all my horses (Except retired ones, those go to riding school) every day (using the auto-showing feature) on cheapest shows. All my tack is fully upgraded. I generally make more in winnings than I pay in entry fees, even if not by too much. I've had 1 foundation horse work his way up to National 1 in this manner before he retired. There's basically no competition starting about the National level, and certainly none in the International ones, so most of those are empty and horses in that level are locked until shows can actually be filled, right? So, why go above R5 if you're exclusively looking for show money?

To sum things up - most people seem fussy about stats because of the want to win shows and make money. They pay more for that. I don't. Yet, I make money from shows 9 times out of 10, and I see many players complain that they can't even break even. I play in the general way a "new" player might, in that I've only got foundation horses and only show them (Assuming because new players wouldn't have horses "good enough" to sell by that point, and factoring in that this discussion is about players making money from shows, and that upgraded tack isn't excessively hard to get with a little pre-planning). I'm doing just fine. That's not quite right if the whole point of the game is to breed and improve the horses. I have no incentive to breed "better" horses, neither for better stats nor better conformation. Why should I? Mine do fine as they are. But the point of a breeding sim is to breed. There should be some advantage to doing that. Conformation affecting show results could add that incentive. Especially if, as was originally suggested, it's not a tremendous advantage overall. Or they could just bring back the conformation shows so there's an actual use for those stats, if they don't want to use it for other shows. Either way would be good, right?

As it is, I only started showing horses after the recode. In old EV, there was more than enough money to be made just playing the mini-games and doing the daily rides that I never even bothered showing. Now it's a bit harder to get it in games (mostly apple bobbing), so I stopped doing that and turned to showing (first for something to do and player points, but now because I think it's pretty nifty). Maybe if showing nothing but foundations gets mildly vexing, I'll actually have motivation to breed or buy "better" horses (put your bets on "buy" people, I'm not breeding these horses). And the addition of the riding school does make it very easy to start building stats on foundation stock while accumulating a little bit of money, thus allowing for a whole new level of strategy available for players who are just starting out, if they're willing to put in some effort into the game.

As for conformation only supporting the show type a horse is supposed to be "best" at, well, I think that might be too complicated to code, and pretty well pointless if we were only talking a slight advantage in the first place. Let's not over complicate things, right? :)