conformation affecting show results

I can agree with conformation being used as a tie breaker, so long as it's used only as a tie breaker, and not the reasoning behind why a horse would be beating others in shows, especially once a horse hits the regional level. Whether or not you contribute the addition of confirmation as 'fair' or not, the point of the game is to breed the best horse - more or less the one that everyone wants. There are three things (mainly, at least) that make a horse wanted - high stats, high conformation, good color. You want a high amount in all three to have the 'perfect' horse for you. Now, everyone breeds based on those three things, and they weigh those things differently based on what they breed - but the end goal for 95% of people on the game is to be top in all three.

I don't get why everyone believes conformation to be extremely difficult to achieve (yes, it does take many generations to achieve good confos, and it's something I think about doing on occasion just to try) because technically you could simply breed each generation at three years old, and continue doing it constantly. The stats will take a hit, of course, but it'd be faster. Stats are -generally- easy to achieve, because you just have to take care of your horses each day, but to maximize them you have to wait the entire lifespan of the horse before breeding them. I wouldn't go so far as to say that non-conformation breeders don't put a good deal of work into the game though. I log on every day, take care of over 300 horses, put foundations into breeding pairs, etc. I wait 18 weeks for a foundation group to have a possibility of pulling in a true profit with their foals, then have to do it all over again for the next generation.

Though, most of this is a moot point and just personal opinion. I don't think it's polite to say that because you've been playing the game for x amount of time that you put in more work than a newbie who works through the same routine. Nor do I think because you've played for longer that you should have an advantage in showing against newer players, as all that will do is keep newer players from striving to become top breeders. In short, the more complicated it gets, the less fun it will be and the harder the game gets overall and will push people away.

In the end, what I mean is that conformation breeders should be breeding for stats too, if they want to compete. Just as stat breeders should take conformation into consideration while breeding because it's the smart thing to do, you get a better horse in the end if you do. I could have a ton of well conformed N1 horses if I simply bred at three years, or bred at a certain stat level, but that doesn't mean they'd sell as well as the even more time consuming well-statted/well-conformed horse. I'm aiming for high stats and conformations in my horses, and I see positive trends most of the time, but it does take time. The high stats of my horses through generations show that it takes time.

My vote:
Confirmation as a tiebreaker - sure, because something could be, if we weren't using luck.
Confirmation as any form of bonus to showing - no, because I put just as much time and effort in to earn my stats as someone does their confirmation.

I was under the impression conformation affected show outcomes until I started breeding my foundies, and quickly realized that my highest confo ponies sometimes did worst in shows. It's enough to be disheartening. I love the idea of having great confo ponies and allowing them a slight advantage in showing. I can't let go off the idea of breeding for conformation! Call it OCD (technically OCPD...)

I am a new player and I think that it is important to have conformation as part of the system for judging. I have a horse that has a poor back and shoulders if this was real life I would never enter her in any shows because it could potentaly lead to some very bad problems. If I'm willing to breed for healthier horses that look nice. When I can. Why is this an issue? If this was real life would any of us be breeding for poorly healthy horses? I think not they are to exspensive to do so, and you would want the best hores you could get.

@Nittrous and Decemure: I just realized from reading your comments that we are totally debating an argument that doesn't exist!!! :P Whoops...let me explain what I mean...

*This is not a rant...I promise...just an attempt at better understanding. I do apologize for the length of this, though...it takes a while to clarify things...my only request is that people read through this as carefully as possible before responding to avoid any details being lost in the mix.*

There are about three sides to this issue, and those are stat breeders, new breeders, and confo breeders...due to a poor choice of vocabulary, however, on the part of the confo breeders, we're debating whether or not to give confo breeders an *advantage* in the game. We need better communication between the groups so we understand each other better.

Long and short, an advantage is not what we confo breeders want; we just want a disadvantage eliminated. This is more in the spirit of the original post which inspired this one...

I figured out that is the problem with the whole issue because I read the comment where Nittrous says confo breeders should pay attention to stats. Yes, I agree, but I think because of the way the old EV worked and because of the way this conversation has gone, the misunderstanding has arisen that confo breeders work on confo and not on stats. The fact is, we do not *breed for stats*, but we do build stats as we breed for confo.

The fact is, in the old EV, building stats was more difficult because it didn't have some of the nice features which make giving out treats easier (i.e. the ability to get autocare and administer treats to every horse all at once), and now, in the new EV, we have riding schools to build stats and make money, which has allowed us to catch up with the stat breeders a bit. Occasionally, myself, I will insist a low-stat horse breeds to a high-stat horse, but for the most part, I use riding schools and treats combined with a minimum breeding age of what's becoming 18 for the stallions and 15 for the mares, so they have time to build stats well before they produce foals. I will even use hay cubes to build stats and just convert training (what's 10K and a couple credits per horse, right?) to get the specialty stats in order. Then I breed for conformation. As a result, my foals have better and better confo and stats with each generation.

I, however, have an incentive to do this...I haven't a single chance in shows if I don't build my stats, especially the specialty stats. The stat breeders, however, do not have my incentive, and therefore it can be difficult to avoid inbreeding problems, unless I take a step backward when I outbreed and breed something with lower confo that I have actually achieved.

Recently, I switched from riding schools to showing, however, and I ran into the same issue I did on the old EV...because I am not focused solely on stats, I might break even or make a very small profit, but my horses don't do well enough to win very many first place awards or gain very many stats; in most cases, I have to settle for second or third place, which have their limitations, so I do not progress as quickly in the game as stat breeders do.

You see, we are throwing the word *advantage* around, but we are not actually using it correctly...for instance, the concept of longer-term breeders having an *advantage* over newer breeders.

Well, technically it is. Let's face it. I have been in the game longer, so I am a higher level and have more horses, which means I make money faster and have more desirable animals to sell, as well as more desirable stud services to offer, and I can ask more both when I stud out stallions and when I breed foals. Therefore, like it or not, an *advantage* over newer breeders is part of the game. The fairness of the game comes in the fact that Abbey has designed it to move more quickly at the lower levels so the new breeders can catch up. I might have more horses, but every new expansion of my limit costs more and more, and every level requires more and more points to gain a new level. Yeah, I've noticed...the more advantages I gain, the more handicaps I gain. That's actually pretty realistic, and it keeps it fair because long-term breeders are getting awarded for the amount of work they have done, but newer breeders do not have an excessive number of obstacles to prevent them from leveling the playing field...this is the kind of concept we need with conformation. We have to have the game designed so that neither newer NOR older players get discouraged from the lack of ability to progress, and Abbey's approach to this in other areas has been fine, so we will have to trust her to apply it to whatever method she uses to address this concern.

The fact of the matter is that conformation doesn't mean much of anything except for people who personally value it right now, and I think the whole goal of this post was originally to propose that we make it mean something more. I mean, I looked at my homepage, and I just realized for all the benefit riding schools have given me, I am not gaining player points. I might have lots of nice horses, but my overall game score really kinda sucks without shows, which really did me a lot more good when I had foundies than when I had horses of 90+ confo, and I probably put about the same amount of time and effort into getting there as a stat breeder of my same level without the same amount of benefit (this is not intended to be a complaint...just matter-of-fact).

My proposal is that maybe some of us confo breeders need to really sit down and really think about it to create a more well-thought proposal than this one, perhaps even drafting a better proposal to bring back confo shows than just "bring back confo shows"?

@Kahzie: I am going to start a discussion post in another forum for us confo breeders to has this out until we can come up with a more viable proposal that won't be so controversial...

What I love about this game, being a relatively new member in comparison to many here, is that it pushes me to evolve and adapt my gameplay in order to meet whatever goals I have at the time. Not only that, but it allows me the flexibility to play with different goals and different strategies for each of my herds! For perspective: my Andalusians and my Vanners of my own stock are my "triple threat" herds, the ones I'm weirdly possessive over, the herds my long-term goal is confo and the short-term goal is stats with a splash of color. To My paints, in contrast, I'm resolute to not even have my own lines of, and am way more concerned with stats and color. Push further, and I have my QH herd that I'm strictly focused on conformation and breed as soon as I can (at this point they don't even have NAMES, lol).

I think confo playing a role in shows would be a very interesting development given that we have the "backup" of Riding Schools. I'm more keen on it being a "tie-breaker". I also want to add that it is a tad erroneous to assume that newer players are stuck in the lower levels of competition. My foundation Andalusians and Vanners all made it to minimum R4, and many hit Na1. My Trakehners are also all sitting pretty in Regional. There is already some intense competition for foundations once they hit Regional, simply because they are already going up against lined horses with better non-specialty stats. It may be a moot point though, as there ARE options to switch showing strategy at that point. Plus, there is already a luck component that plays s role.

What hasn't been mentioned yet is how this might affect other game-wide concerns. One of the root challenges of this game is increasing the dedicated active player base. With more dedicated players, there'll be a potential increase in economy (woo for all!) , and a greater possibility for new and shiny developments (a new breed?!?). To increase the game base, there has to be a draw that pulls people and causes them to get hooked. I'd argue that this means there needs to be an appeal to the more casual daily player. Adding confo in any way other than a tie-breaker, I think, risks that demographic in favor of the more invested/long-standing/intense players (I count myself as one of these intense players). At least, it risks it in the sense that it may push away the casual player or newer intense players before the game has a chance to "hook" them in.

^Nice feedback, Ducky! :)

I just created this thread for what may be the best solution to the entire problem...flat-out asking Abbey to bring back confo shows, with specific ideas as to how it might work best. I think this might be a LOT less controversial and make MUCH more sense to all sides of the debate. I really hope I took everything into account this way!

Thank you to anyone who provides helpful feedback; I'd like to do this right this time! :)

~OOOOPS...double post~

Last edited on 2016-12-29 at 13:58:59 by silverfoxmar2009

As a new Player I do not expect to take the top placement and I would expect to work for top placement in shows. so if they would want to let conformation count toward shows then the answer to that would be make different level of shows. Foundation horses would be in one level of shows and have their own showing levels. Where as second or more generation horses would be in another showing level. In that way newer players would have a chance to beat and place with other newer players. Where as people whom have been playing for some time and have the horses and have put in the work to prove it would be competing with each other. That is how to keep the game fair and still reward the players whom have put in the work to build up there lines.

The ones that say will I should win because I have been here for a long time and have put in the work.A game will not last with out new players and new players will not stay if they can't earn money and work to build up their herd.

I don't have a problem doing the work to build up my herd but if I can't even place in a show and I am losing more money then I am earning I am not going to keep showing. And new people to the game will want to show as that is a big big part of this game.

So splitting the showing and adding the conformation effects would make all happy.

@Magic Happens...please see the link in the first comment on this page. The discussion has moved elsewhere and shifted gears to forming a proposal for conformation shows. Also please note that nobody ever said they should win because they have been here for a long time and done the work...the discussion was about making efforts of long-time breeders count for something. Let us not keep escalating this with further arguments.

I was not trying to start an argument as I also posted what i thought would be a way to solve the issue as well as give a new players perspective on the issue. So on that note I will keep my thoughts to my self.

No support.

It's unreasonable that players that breed mostly for confo reap no rewards from their efforts, but I don't think that they should get an advantage in shows.

Get some confo shows like in the old ev, except you can enter more than 1 per horse per day.

I mean, if we're concerned about new players I could always make it so that conformation only affects shows that are Local+.

Gives new members time to work out the game at Novice level before introducing another thing to affect shows.

I'm just throwing this in as an idea, not pitching my support or non-support :) I'll let members give support/no support and then make a decision based largely on that.

That's an interesting idea, Abbey...make it a tie breaker, maybe? :)

I think that confo should count.I don't even breed for confo but obviously a well conformed horse is theoretically going to do better in almost any discipline than a poorly conformed horse.

But I think it should be implemented a bit gradually. Like every 3 months or whatever make it count a little bit more.

And I've been breeding twh for a while and mine are doing great, and I've added store horses and they're leveling up pretty quickly. I think it makes a difference that only discipline important stats count now for scoring.