What Caused the Economy Problems?

It seems to me that everyone has a different theory for the factors that caused the recent economy problems (horse sales, credit sales, big gap between really rich members and normal members, so on and so forth), so what do you think caused it? I thought this could be a really interesting discussion, as a lot of people seem to have thought this out really thoroughly, and no one seems to agree on exactly what it was. So hit us with the theories! What caused it, and what should be done to fix it? Do you think it needs fixing? Will it eventually resolve itself? Have any recent changes helped? When exactly did it start becoming a big problem? Veteran members, has it always been a problem, and what was it like near the beginning? Members of multiple sim games, have there been similar problems on other games before?

Post away!

Last edited on 2020-10-16 at 14:22:06 by River

My theory is that it’s due largely to the post-recode ability of a single player to produce unlimited amounts of foundations from the Equine Center. 

Players can create entire foundation herds and need never buy a horse from another player again. Compounded with the overall desire for “clean lines”, no inbreeding, and no “overbreeding” means that players control their own lines and go outside for bred-by-others horses far less frequently. 

I think something to incentivize collaboration with other player would be a huge help, wether that’s reimplementing the cap on the Equine Center or somehow rewarding players for working together and selling to/buying from other players. 

I think it's one or two larger problems with a smattering of smaller issued that have compunded over time. What you see now isn't the problem but an end result. 

Regardless of what glaring issue you would/could pick out as the 'big bad' I would argue the bigger issue is lack of player base. It would take a lot of fine tuning to start shifting the economy in any direction, and it would take longer to see where you've ended up.
I think the most I've seen was 40 today, and that's really not enough to carry a whole economy shift. It can get the ball rolling, but to stimulate the market you'd need to devise a way to incentivise spending money. 

I'd bet you most of those 40 are people who would never need to worry about financial issues for the rest of this games lifetime, unless there was a hard reset. Which I'm sure would cause a great deal of unrest unless other aspects of the game were tweaked and balanced to handle it appropriately.

Most games of this nature, tend to boil down to having ones own special, premium bloodstock lines. It's just the nature of the beast. Regardless of what people decided to fixate on, there will always be a trend set and followed. 

I think the best way to go about addressing the issue is working backwards. You need a larger player base to give you solid data, working towards increasing player retention would be #1 in my opinion. Once you can grow and get more money moving, I think then you would be better off slowly working on tweaking things as trends start to naturally occur.

You can add and change as much as you want, but if you don't have people to use it, it's kind of a moot point.

Last edited on 2020-10-16 at 17:17:09 by Goat

I actually agree with Goat. I too think EV needs more players and eventually, this would likely help the economy. Since Goat already explained it I won't go into it again, but I really do think getting more consistent not just log-on-one-time-and-never-again players would help. Really only better advertisement of the game would solve this problem- but pretty much 99% of the ways to advertise involve real-world money- and lots of it. The other 1% though, is player-based advertisement and this is where we (users of EV) can help. Obviously, this is not the only solution and there are many more problems but I think if this is improved it would help the economy. 

I agree with both theories so far. The fact that players can pretty much custom create an entire herd means they don't have to look elsewhere for something specific. We can do huge EC pulls, customize the horse's color, pattern, and now face and leg markings. Why would we need to buy from someone else? 

People are worried about the overbreeding and inbreeding or line breeding, whatever you want to call it, so people don't sell their horses. Personally I have put hundreds of real usd into my driving gypsy vanners herd. I don't want them to eventually be undervalued so I just don't sell them or offer breedings right now. If the lines are all over the place then if I do want to put someone up for stud then what kind of value is the horse even as a stud, when they could possibly get the same lines from someone else for a lower cost?

We do need more active members. Out of the two games like this I play(okay not really active on the other one) this one does have the most amount of players online at any given time. Advertising on social media might help with this. An Equiverse facebook and maybe an instagram account. Adding new things to the game...items, horse breeds, coat color variation would possibly bring new members. Items it seems we may get more of however breeds and color variation I doubt will be added. Adding more events in...not even necessarily things like the events we currently have but games and contests would maybe draw more people in or get the current players more active. I have tried doing incentive programs in the past but it is really hard to fund this completely on my own and I did have a few people take serious advantage of it which kind of ruined it for others because I'm not willing to have people buy credits from me at a low cost(40k a piece) then re-sell them 20 minutes later at $250k. So really, do not want to do that anymore. 

I do think one of the main things that would help the economy is members buying horses from other members again. I buy horses once in awhile from other players even if I don't use those breeds/disciplines. I keep the horses fed and cared for and usually do some showing or riding school. Will offer them up for breeding if I see someone looking for that particular breed/discipline. As far as getting credit prices down you can't just start the trend of selling them lower because someone will buy them up and post them for 4x the amount they purchased at. 

I agree with Goat too. The only way I could get anywhere with this game is through spending real money, otherwise, I would not be where I am today. The problem is that the inflation of money and the problem with having too many people with so much money (I mean 100 million-plus) and therefore fewer players with a lot less money. 

I saw a few days back, on the marketplace, someone was desperate to sell her horse otherwise she would go broke and go in-debt. I was watching what was happening and realized that no one helped her, I don't remember who but she was only wanting 25k in return. 

I believe it also goes down to the player base, maybe a donation well or something where you donate money in return for items and that money goes into the bank accounts to some new player, giving them a boost, because that is what they need. Maybe to all accounts that are less than 6 months old or something. 

Last edited on 2020-10-16 at 17:49:25 by Laureal

Going off of what Laureal said, maybe implementing a donation part to the wishing well. Where members can donate money and players who wish for money who have under a certain amount have the possibility of then getting some of the donated money? 

There's lot of little things but mainly I think that it's three main problems - things that I really do not think the game as it stands right now has the ability to fix. One of these problems is nobody's fault and one of these problems is everyone's fault and one of them just needs a little more tweaking.

The first problem is that the actual ACT of making money, the accumulation of any kind of wealth in the game is very challenging, especially if you don't have the option to make and sell art. And if you DO have that option, the game basically becomes broken for you, because you have the ability to create something outside of the game's mechanics to create however much money whenever you want to. I love the art community here, but that is effectively cheating and I wish there was a way for us as players to show them appreciation and reward their work - particularly since I'm sure the price for art has also diminished wildly as less and less players are even able to afford the work they do. This is the part that most would be fixed with the infusion of many new dedicated players, because the more there are, the more money that is allowed to circulate throughout the community. More accessible tutorials on making a profit would also help. 

The second is that...people have been playing this game A Really Long Time. Like...A LONG TIME. And that has created obsessively perfected bloodlines, wealth built from those bloodlines, and the security of having your horses consistently placing at the top in shows and the knowledge to help you play this game in a way that will not result in your sinking into debt. Personally as a player whose only recently gotten the knack of figuring out how I'd like to approach playing from now on, I would be SUPER SUPER helpful if things like stud/brood price and flat sale price were...y'know. Regulated. Or at the very least if there were consistent guidelines that most people tend to follow. Of course, you could also still put up a horse for offer and see if you can get MORE than market value, but that should be a for the Very Experienced only. 

Third. I'm just gonna say it - Cubing. When Confirmation was a real, actual discipline effected by all of a horses across the broad stats, peppermints were KING, the holy grail of treats. But the game has been recoded and players feed their horses cubes believing they can convert later on, but then realize that, for a decent herd, this costs an absolutely ENORMOUS amount of money, and now we have SCORES AND SCORES of horses with effed up stats that will take GENERATIONS worth of breeding to become worth something. This ties into kahzie's theory about the recode meaning that there is no limit to your foundation horses - and why wouldn't someone with any basic understanding of the game NOT just make their own horses, when everything on the market will set back their breeding program for multiple generations? I realized I had to do this just last week when I had many more colts in my Friesian herd than fillies - after looking at the stock for sale, if I wanted to keep the quality of my lines' NSS and not spend possibly YEARS of real life time fixing what it did to my lines without going broke, it would be faster to do it myself with the basic filly, even though I would sacrifice total stats. But it's easier to build up stats than it is to slowly take them off through breeding. 

In the end, the game is designed to allow you to play anyway that you want to - the real, total reason that the economy has crashed is that the game is also designed so that there are only really a few ways to 'win', and brand new players are never going to realize this, because nobody tells them so.

...welcome to Capitalism, I guess? :/

Ace - while making art and selling it does get your money, i dont believe the price has diminished like you believe, i have been playing this since 2012 and when i was actively playing before the recode, tag were roughly 50k. Horse sales were higher as least mine were. But there was a limit on EC horses that could be created and if you didnt use them, you could sell them for those wanting larger herds.

I am surprised to come back on after a few years off and see that horses dont really sell. I use to be able to price 1k per 100 stats and sell easy but now I cant even sell a 400 stat horse for 4k. 

Only idea i have could be putting a cap back on ec horses created but i dont if that will help. I still play around no really having dedicated lines like on my main but just seeing other breeds and still enjoy the game. Im sure i will still play years to come.

I would say, and I'm going to be as neutral as possible, but art as a whole I don't think is really "cheating". Now I know as an artist its like "well that obviously benefits you", but hear me out:

There was a game I played that predates EV by ... gosh like more than 5 years I'd say, and art was a healthy part of the community. And it wasn't just "art" art but coding, layouts, etc, the whole gamut. This game suffered from just a general die off of active players, I believe its slowly reviving itself, but I am no longer active in the game so I can't speak much for it now.

Conversely I have played another game that easily predates EV by about 5 years and it had no art outlet, and it too faced the exact same economic issues of inflation, too much money and other things lack of communication from the dev, stagnation of things being added, etc. That game is still trucking and has a similar "core" of ye olde players.

The difference between the first game and EV is that showing was MUCH more rewarding, and you could easily make income off of training, showing and breeding horses. The market would have been similar to what you would have seen in V1. Actually I would argue (from memory) that it would be easier to make money from showing/selling your "special lined super sparkly ponies" than art alone. If I recall correctly, you could also just "make" foundations, but it cost a lot more. It was definitely more of a investment, and they were very coveted.

/end commentary

The main issue is you are kind of fundamentally battling hyper capitalism lol if I had to do my master's thesis, it would absolutely use online sims as my core example. They are bananas!

Last edited on 2020-10-16 at 18:45:12 by Goat

Going on from what goat said, and from my three hours of research most if not all games, end up having a virtual economy that has crashed from hyperinflation and extreme unequal disproportion of wealth between players at some point. The question we should be asking is how to get out of it and not how it all started? 

The thing we can do is create more money sinks, and ways for money to be easily accessible to new players. The problem is the lack of money being circulated and players not wanting to spend heaps of money, or not wanting to invest in other people's horses because they can create their own lines from foundations fairly easily. 

Instead, these things should happen:

One: players with more money should be investing in the economy rather than have it sit in a bank, this can be done by making foundations harder to come by, money sinks such as customizable things, special rewards that can only be spent on with money, not credits.

Two: more focus being put on NSS to new players so that they are more knowledgeable in the game and therefore will create/breed/have horses that are more enticing for other players to use. 

Three: The second thing that should happen is that new players and those with fewer funds should be able to acquire more horses through the use of leasing (therefore they can have top quality horses and show them for a limited time) by having more horses in shows will be better for everyone. Also, shows should have more monetary gain and therefore make it more accessible for everyone to win more money, the more money being won and circulated the better.

Four: Limiting the number of foundations that can be acquired on the EC, the fewer horses that are in circulation the higher their prices will go up. Instead of creating random amounts of horses and dumping them in the RC the foundations should be paid for either by making them more expensive to come across or having to buy credits to get them.

five: Those that are really desperate for money can wish for it, and it gets donated to them by another player. Those that do donate their money get special items the more money they donate the rarer the items. 

I mean, I know people seem to really fixate on money sinks, but taxes are another efficient and realistic way of taking money off the top. There is too much bloat to be handled by just 'a money sink'. You have to give the person with money reason to spend it.

The problem with four is it would likely cause prices to inflate beyond what the beginning stable could afford. I would err on making them just more expensive. It's s fundamental part of the game, but I think if you out into perspective the sheer quantity of horses coming out of the EC is huge. And those horses or their offspring are likely never going to hit the market, for stud or sale. So it's all very isolated and self contained.

* For clarity

Money sink =/= taxes

It's not the same thing. All the money sinks in game are 90% optional, so they're not really working as intended.

Last edited on 2020-10-16 at 22:07:42 by Goat

Also because I can't be bothered to edit. Unless you fix the top end, the market would go super wacky because everyone with money can just control the market and price out the average player. Not that they would, but it's just something to keep in mind. 

You could do sliding scale of taxes per $ owned to offset daily interest and it would help scale everything back without doing anything too crazy.

Okay, goat you have convinced me, sorry was just trying to come up with ideas that might help. I believe a *tax* of some sort is really what is needed, maybe the more horses one has the higher the upkeep and tax one has to pay. Maybe there should be a cut off of how much money you can receive interest on that is lower than it is now. 

Last edited on 2020-10-17 at 02:58:28 by Laureal

Not personally sure what caused the economy crash but all say is from my personal experiences.

I would LOVE to buy/bred to other people's horses. My problem is I am at the stage where I have exhausted all outside lines in one of the breeds I have with similar level & slightly lower level horses to my own. I personally don't want to breed a 16th gen to a foundation every time though of course occasionally I will do this to infuse fresh blood. I usually have to start a foundation herd then after that has its 4th gen babies start running those in with my main lines. But I digress; finding other players who raise their horses without cubes etc & not inbred is my biggest headache. Most players don't seem to stick with a breed for years (been raising mine 10 RL years now) so inevitably it comes down to just being on your own and making the best of it.

The worth of horses is an issue because NO ONE knows how to,price something now so I say we should have an independent horse evaluation tool coded into the game. Something like shifty Jim but obviously not him. Just something that takes into account age/stats/nss/Confo/rare genes/length of pedigree maybe idk just something to give everyone a rough idea of horse value. Then it would be up to you if you priced your horse in line with this tool or over/under priced it. 

Also it depends on what horse breed & discipline you choose. I know some players have sold certain breeds with the Silver gene for $100k per individual so I suppose there is a market out there for certain specific criteria.

I think a EC limit is fine and it worked well before.... though this could be open to exploitation/enterprising business minded (depending on your view) in the sense that a new player could create their allotted limit for players who want a big herd but can't get one immediately due to the limit I.E. sell the horses created to order for an mildly or vastly inflated profit depending on supply & demand.

Can't think of anything else at the moment but that's enough for now I think!

EDIT aim referance to what Ace said I do,not agree its hard to make money on EV anymore. You now have the riding school for poor show horses and you can rake in a LOT of money just from a team of 15 over the course of a week plus treats you can sell or trade back to the shop for money. I just traded my last weeks cubes back to the shop and got over 25k (might have got even more selling to other players) that's without any actual riding school money factored in. I sold a lot of level 1 tack I had accumulated and this fetched over 60k; a valuable reminder to Don't forget to clear your inventory of unwanted stuff! added to this you get free credits which you can sell for huge money. I don't see how you can fail to earn money? 

That's not even from showing its everything but. And I also disagree with How much people think others get from showing. I break even roughly per month. With a full show team of 200 horses (some pre recode) more or less. BREAK EVEN not massively in profit. My money comes from other streams as mentioned above. I don't do art. I saved hard and worked hard and don't go mad buying everything just because I can just as soon as I get some money. A bit of budgeting and restraint will do wonders for everyone and is a valuable tool for RL!

Last edited on 2020-10-17 at 06:17:04 by Fabelhaft [DWBs & Trakes]