[ADDED] *modify breeding formula

i made a second suggestion (linking back to this post) that the change be implemented ASAP. That suggestion was deleted with no warning or reason, and I assumed it was because it was too similar to this one. I didn't feel it was (hence my making it a new one) and judging from responses in this thread other wouldn't see it that way either. Still the suggestion as it is "ASAP" not immediately, so if that feel like a demand I am sorry. 

I do think that a generational bonus is very much needed. Like I'd originally said, there's no point breeding horses if they aren't going to be any better at showing than their parents. They might have higher stats, but without the ability to breed down non-spec stats they are no more competitive. The pre-recode ability to breed down non-spec stats was essentially a "generational bonus", but we don't have that any more.

I'd be very interested in the possibility of generational bonuses if there is to be no formula adjustment, but i'm still not certain how i feel about the stat-grade option (though that is mostly because i'm not entirely sure how it would work and affect current horses).

So, I'm trying to be constructive here.  The general consensus seems to be that people want to be able to breed down non-discipline stats, but that tweaking the breeding formula, though greatly desired by many, is potentially complicated and may cause debilitating bugs.  Feelings are mixed about the short-term solution proposed by Abbey, with the pros being that less experienced players will find showing much more approachable, but the cons being that it will take away much of the challenge that is such a draw to the players who want something difficult to work towards, and the reward for that labor.

I've been wracking my brain to think of a way to be able to breed down stats without requiring any tricky reprogramming.  The only thing I can think of is how, when people buy a pair of three year olds from the Equine Center, and they are so eager to get down to breeding that they do it right off, while the pair is still only 100 stats each.  The foals often end up with 99 or even 98 stats.  We've all seen them kicking around here and there.  I just did a search and found one horse with 97 stats that was the foal of a 100 stat foundation, and a 99 stat horse that was itself the foal of two 100 stat foundations.

So it appears that it is possible to breed stats down, very slowly, if the stats are rock-bottom to begin with.  Most of the horses in the example I found have no discipline, except for the original foundation pair, and it is unclear whether they had a discipline when they were bred.  So I'm not sure if it matters if a horse has a discipline when bred or not.  It would kind of make sense, if there was no discipline, that there would be no way for the game to differentiate discipline stats from non-discipline stats, therefore reducing the foal's stats at random, rather than only reducing the discipline stats, as currently happens with higher stat horses that have disciplines.  It is possible that a super low-stat horse with a discipline might also only lose that stat or two from the discipline stats, but I have not tested that theory yet.

I do have an experimental herd of low stat Fresians that I bought and bred yesterday, but it will still be three weeks before I can breed the next generation, so I can't solidly confirm whether my theory works or not, but if it does, it may be possible to breed all stats down to very minimal levels, before changing the strategy to build up only the discipline stats, creating a post-recode, low discipline stat horse.

This method would be very, very, very slow, though it would take less time per generation because there would be no reason to wait to breed - all the horses could be bred at age three with no negative repercussions, because you would not be trying to build up stats before breeding.  However, with only a stat or two being lost each generation, it could take a rough average of 75 generations to breed your horses all the way down to the rock-bottom.  During this time, you would not be able to show, treat, train, or put your horses in schools, for fear of gaining back your hard-lost stats.  (Kind of sounds like dieting, in a way!)

However, the patient would be rewarded with the kind of showing powerhouses that we can only dream of breeding today.

I know this is far slower and more tedious than what we were hoping for, but it would give us something to work towards while waiting.  For me, as slow as it probably will be, it would make all the difference, as a challenging long-term goal with a worthy reward at the end.

I wasn't going to say anything at least until I got the next generation, and could see if the stats continued to reduce, but I found that one example that seems to point that direction, and I feel like we're all getting frustrated with each other, and I wanted to nip that in the bud before things get too ugly.

Of course, none of this will be worth anything if Abbey decides to go forward with her proposed change.  And I know, Abbey, that we got on your nerves with our eagerness to be able to move forward.  I am sorry for the irritation, and I hope you know that it came from a place of deep love for the game and an appreciation for all your hard work, and a hope to plunge into very active playing of the game as soon as possible.  And I would like to propose that this showing change not be implemented, and instead, those of us who wanted the formula change so badly will stop pestering about it, and will be content to take this slower method (if it works, which I hope) to achieve our goals while we wait for you to address the issue of the breeding formula on your own pace, if you choose to do so.

I support abbey's compromise suggestion. It'll eliminate the need for lower non specialty stats. Why? Well I've always thought of it as unfair. Any post recode horses were made with lower non-specialty stats. They aren't created anymore, what we have left is all that will ever be. How do newbs ever compete against that? How is that fair to newer members who won't be able to get that with their foundation horses. I think anything that you can't create now with the equine center shouldn't be allowed. It gives unfair edge to older members or post code. Two horses with 300 stats [etc] should be on equal footing with each other. Vs one of those 300 stat horses will lose because it doesn't have low stats in the area it doesn't even use in game play. Idk I'm not trying to add to the fire but I felt the need to voice a little. Or my perspective on the lower non specialty stats. I don't breed for them and don't really plan too. I was never going to be able to compete with other players in that regard because those types of horses are hard to find. [Limited in existence] You need a lot of cash to persuade someone to sell it too you. [If you even find one willing to even consider selling.] And once they are used up, they'll most likely be in private blood lines that aren't open to the public. I doubt I could find enough tb's / clydes with low non specialty stats on the market to even make a blood line anymore. If everyone's looking for them? I don't got a chance. 

It's unfair in my eyes. I think of it as like a exclusive rare additional marking that you can only get from certain horses/players. Limited in existence so you have to find this special marking or never have it. It doesn't float my boat really. I should be able to accomplish the same as any other player without having to out source/inbreed etc to be able to compete. I should be able to accomplish it with the foundations I have bought from equine center. Though this is my two cents. If I sound "heated" it's not my intention to offend or stir the pot. 

Edit: I also support the idea of generation bonuses. Blood lines seem to be very important to a lot of players. This would give people a incentive to keep breeding the longest lines. Though maybe more looked into to make things fair. 

Abbey, it really is a difficult balance to try to keep things accessible for new players while still keeping things challenging for players that have been around long enough or just plain have the desire to play on that level.

That's one reason why I really like the addition of the riding school.  It's very easy and accessible and rewarding for that not-so-technical player who maybe isn't really ready for the competitive world of showing.

But I do think that showing is probably the best place for things to get challenging.  It should take hard work and strategy and generations of breeding to get a truly competitive, top notch show horse.  It echoes real life because, to get a real horse of that quality also takes a lot of hard work and strategy and breeding.

Of all the things that went into making a great show horse, breeding down those non-discipline stats was probably the best test of a breeder's skill in the game.  It was a very tangible reward for long-term effort and careful strategy.  That's why we miss it so much.  It has less to do with how many generations was in a horse's pedigree, but rather the amount of care that was taken in each generation to do things like choose the right foundation stock, give the right treats at the right time, use the Convert Training strategy properly, pair the right two horses together.  The ones that did it best got the natural reward of the best show horses.  It is a process that was complex, and we got a lot of enjoyment out of that complexity because we felt we really earned our competitive edge.

I'm not sure that can be replaced by a simple bonus for having deep pedigree.

I am sorry to find that the breeding formula is such a tricky thing to change, because the process of breeding down those non-discipline stats was such a beautiful accident that added so much dimension to the game, and it was a real loss when it went away.  I would be sorry to see non-discipline stats be eliminated entirely as a showing element, and I think it would be really difficult to come up with anything that would really replace it in terms of satisfaction in a challenge met.

I like the idea of changing the grading to make it more fair for everyone with the added generation bonus.
I think it would be better for the game to have a system that's easier for new players to understand while still giving higher gen foals an advantage over their parents so it's still competitive. Especially since the initial shift could be implemented more easily with the bonuses added in with time. I support this suggestion 100%

I agree with Eliza :)

Therion and I were discussing an idea for generational bonuses. The bonus could be higher the older a horse is when it's bred. This would keep things fair for newer players, as there would be less incentive to breed younger/lower-statted horses, and therefore the Novice grades would be kept at an equal playing field for all players. (This is assuming that younger horses = lower statted horses, which is often but not always true.) It could also be done as a ratio between stats, age, and generation (an old horse with fewer stats would get less of a bonus than an old horse with more stats, and the bonus would also increase with each generation). I think something like this might help restore some of the complexity members are looking for without having to resort to changing the breeding formula. The generational formula could also use (specialty) stat gain rather than just the straight-up stats, and in fact I think that would be wiser.

(e) I imagine that the bonus wouldn't be in the form of stats in either case, as I imagine that would involve editing the breeding formula.

Last edited on 2018-02-05 at 22:01:27 by Syrien 🐇 ☽

My concern with a simple generational bonus is if it rewards horses for just having lots of generations.  With that, the fastest way to gain an edge is simply to breed your horses at age three to be able to pack a lot of generations into a short amount of time.  I'm not sure if that is the best dynamic to encourage.  I feel that advantages should be the result of the quality of the generations rather than the quantity of the generations.

Also, as I mentioned before, I am similarly concerned about the dynamics of making it so that every horse with 600 discipline stats is the exact equal of every other horse with 600 discipline stats.  People are going to try to find an edge in showing, and the only available edge will be to spend as much time as possible teetering on the brink of the highest stat for each grade.  This makes it so you win more shows if you don't let your horse gain stats, because that will ensure that your horse remains the highest statted horse in its grade.  People will stop giving their horses treats, or training them, or entering them in shows that have enough entries to gain stats.  I don't think it's a great dynamic for the game for people to be rewarded for not letting their horses progress.  You'll win more shows if you can keep your horse at 49 discipline stats forever than you will producing one with 1000 discipline stats.  They will be in different shows, and the one with 1000 will be graded higher, but it won't win while the one with 49 will walk away with all the wins as long as it never gains that 50th stat.

In the end, strategic people will be rewarded for not letting their horses progress, and the new people who don't understand the intricacies of showing will still wonder why their horses win so rarely (because all the wins will go to the people who can keep their horse teetering on the edge the longest.)  I feel that this will introduce a culture of purposeful growth stagnation into the game while still leaving new people frustrated with showing, thus solving nothing in the end.

@confessor - this could be fixed with a randomness factor in showing as well. Obviously it wouldn't be totally random, but sometimes top horses in real life have an off day. They don't win 100%of the time.

Personally, I don't care what place my horse gets, as long as it wins stats, and perhaps I'm way off here, but I think most players feel this way. I think it's a waste when not enough horses are entered in a class so my horse don't gain stats when they win.

I do agree with you about a generational bonus will encourage people to breed younger.

There are definitely many things to consider.

Those concerns are exactly the reason I suggested the generational bonus being affected by other things. I'm just trying to toss out more ideas so that a compromise may be reached that more people agree with.

@syrien - oops. I got caught up typing/didn't see your post/not sure exactly what happened. I like that idea! What if the bonus increased (not ridiculously drastic) the later in life the horse was bred. I thought the bonus would be similar to tack - does not count in the horse's stats but helps them in shows.

Last edited on 2018-02-05 at 22:17:55 by marigold sunshine

@Marigold

Hehe, that happens! I definitely agree with that suggestion. Perhaps the horses don't even gain a generational bonus until they reach a certain age, though I might be hesitant to agree with that because I don't want to dictate how people play the game too much. I just want the game to be fair to all, yet still contain challenge. And yeah, that's a good example of how the bonus might work!

I do prefer Syrien's ideas of generational bonuses, if such a thing does get implemented to replace the significance of low non-discipline stats.  Whatever happens, I feel it ought to encourage growth, and it needs to do so emphatically enough to make it not worth people's while to "hover on the brink" as I described.

I'm not sure what I think about tying the bonus to the age of the horse, because there are legitimate reasons to breed a horse young.  For example, if you are trying to raise conformation and not have it take too many real-life years to do so, it's actually very helpful to breed young.  An age related generational bonus would make it really difficult to breed for conformation and show power at the same time.  However, it would help solve the problem of people just pumping out generations really quickly to get as much generational bonus as possible.  So I'm not really sure how I feel - I'm kind of torn on it.

I'm also still not sure if this fully addresses the need of players such as myself to have something that requires strategy to keep me fully engaged in the game.  The terms of the bonus may be complex, but I don't know that what I as a player would do to receive those bonuses would actually be complex.  It sounds like it's a pretty straightforward regimen of "raise your horse's stats, breed them old, keep breeding lots of generations."  I need to think about this more, for sure.

Ha, I think we're all posting at once!  I get done writing something, and by the time I post it, there's three more posts ahead of me!

@syrien - just to clarify - I mean the foals get the bonus (I think that's what you mean. I just want to be sure we are on the same page). So the later in life the parents are bred, the better increase a foal gets. I don't think the increase should be stats, because with the parents same discipline bonus, I think horse stats are increasing really fast (which I touched on earlier).

@confessor - good point about the conformation breeders. There should be a bonus at any age but just increase slightly. So conformation bred horses that had young parents would probably have lower stats anyway, and be competing against foundation/lower generation lined horses (more generations =more smaller bonuses, vs one slightly bigger bonus). Which would help to even out the problem. 

I'm about to complicate things more, as I think horses with good conformation should be rewarded, as horses with good conformation irl probably have better show careers, as in they don't have to be the prettiest horse, but if they have a better foundation, they will hold up to the rigors of showing much better than a horse with poor conformation. But that's probably a bit farther down the road, and I am getting way off topic.