Crossbreeding and breed registries

Firstly, I just want to stress that I'm not proposing this idea necessarily be implemented now, so please vote for or against based on the merit in the idea itself, and not based on whether the game, its economy or anything else can handle this sort of thing right now.


The main idea

My idea concerns crossbreeding, but not simply the general open crossbreeding or the "pure" crossbreeding that has been proposed in other suggestions. It can be more likened to creating and developing our own breeds by the same method that occurs in real life, i.e. breeding suitable pure/foundation stock together and selectively breeding to get a particular breed standard.

The way EV could handle this would firstly be to allow open crossbreeding, i.e. where you can breed anything to anything else. So when you bred two different breeds together the breed of the foal would initially read something like "crossbreed" or "grade horse", with maybe "50% BreedA, 50% BreedB" somewhere if we need that level of clarity. The second component of this suggestion is breed registries. So deluxe players could create their own breed clubs similar to the existing official breed clubs where players can register their horses. The president of the club would have their own idea of breed standards and could manually accept or reject horses for their registry based on whether they feel a horse meets it. Such standards could include things like having at least 25% blood of BreedA, or being descended from foundation stock HorseA or HorseB, or being in a certain discipline, or only coming in certain colours, or pretty much anything they liked. Note that these requirements wouldn't be coded in, it would be up to the president to determine if a horse was suitable. But once a horse gets accepted into that registry then its breed changes from "crossbreed" to whatever that registry calls their breed. This could be used to handle both recognised crossbreeds, e.g. anglo-arab, and fictional player-made breeds.


Art

The biggest question this idea raises is about art. For a breed listed as simply "crossbreed" there could be a generic artwork for all crossbreeds regardless of the parent breeds. Or alternatively something very simple like a horse silhouette. This latter option would discourage people from breeding just anything together, and encourage them to aim for a particular standard that would potentially allow registration in a registry. For registered crossbreeds, there could be the option to use custom images, or players who control the registry could upload a base or series of images that could be used on the registered crossbreeds.


Other tweaks?

Also, the breed registries/clubs should probably have an option to be either controlled solely by the creator (or someone they appoint?), or have an electoral system where the president can change regularly. This will prevent someone having a breed they created hijacked by someone with very different ideas of breed standards if they set their registry to be controlled only by themselves, but also allow different people to take turns controlling other registries like the official breed clubs do.

Maybe it could also be possible for registries to offer a second 'Appendix' type registration for horses which don't meet all the breed standards, but meet enough of them that they could make decent breeding stock. Horses would only be able to use the art if they were accepted into the main registry. This appendix would only serve as a helpful list for people to find good breeding stock.


Some possible problems/solutions that may come with this idea:

1. Some horses may be eligible for registration in multiple breed registries. This is fine, and just like real life, however if they're registered in multiple registries there is the question of what their registered breed is (and therefore what art is used). Perhaps in this scenario the owner would get a choice from a drop down menu as to which breed they wish to use. Maybe once set this couldn't be changed, or else was difficult to change, like horse specialties.

2. We could potentially end up with competing registries, i.e. someone doesn't like the standards the BreedX registry is using and feels like they should be something else, so creates their own registry for what is effectively the same crossbreed. I think breed names should be reserved, so once one registry claims a name, no other registry should be able to use it to avoid confusion, however they could get around this with small name variations, such as Azteca and American Azteca. This is a frustrating but realistic scenario that occurs in real life as well, but I think there's no real way to prevent this except by letting the market pressures just control things organically. (Maybe the approval process mentioned in #4 below.)

3. We could end up with a LOT of crossbreed registries (and therefore a lot of breeds). Perhaps if establishing a registry had a high cost, such as several credits, and maybe EVD as well, and/or required a minimum player level, then this would limit it quite a bit, and ensure people thought hard before creating a registry, and checked to see if there wasn't already another suitable one already in existence.

4. If people can name their breed whatever they like it's only a matter of time until we have a Unicorn registry or similar. Is this a bad thing? Some people will dislike this because of the lack of realism, but they don't have to have anything to do with the breed if they don't want, so I'm not sure this is a strong argument for preventing this from occurring completely. If we did wish to prevent it, there could perhaps be an approval process for new registries, such that a mod or admin would have to manually approve it before it could be created, which would also help prevent some competing registries from forming so we didn't end up with both "anglo-arab" and "anglo arab" as separate breeds.


Feedback?
I'm keen to hear what you guys think of this, what other pros and cons may exist, how some of these issues could be resolved, and hear other potential changes/suggestions.

Last edited on 2017-02-16 at 18:55:00 by UlyssesBlue (spare)

I personally am on the fence. I have never been against open crossbreeding, but based on the poll Abbey did recently, most people have no interest in mixing random breeds together.

Some other possible issues I see:

1. Multiple people wanting the same crosses. And it wouldn't really be fair to tell people they can't do certain crosses, but at the same time you can't have multiple new breeds that are pretty much actually the same thing.

2. Doing multiple crosses is a huge commitment. Most people only breed toward the end of their stock's life so we're talking multiple generations to get to a certain cross and it could take years. That's a really big undertaking and while some people might be fine with it, not everyone will stick around the site that long and not everyone is going to want to put in that kind of energy.

The biggest hurtle for me though is the art. I do not like the idea of having just a blank silhouette, or some generic art for all crossbreeds. And I think it will get unexciting real quick if there's not art for the final breed/product. I am really against inconsistencies so I strongly dislike the idea of people getting to upload their own art, because it might be a totally different style than the main art on the site. And a lot of people wouldn't want to undertake creating that much art themselves, or wouldn't have the skills to. Which leaves possibly paying someone, which seems like a lot to have to do.


I like the idea overall. But at the same time, it seems to have more cons than pros right now. :/


EDIT: Another issue: say you spend a couple years creating your own breed. You get it registered and all that. Great. But then what? What if nobody else is breeding that combination? Do you just keep crossbreeding out? Does that crossbreeding ruin your final product? If nobody else is breeding your new breed, which is entirely likely if they didn't spend years working on the same combination, you'd have to repeatedly breed to your own stock to keep the breed going, which is inbreeding galore. xD But if that ends up being the situation, inbreeding is your only option unless you want years of work to be wasted if the breed dies out.

Last edited on 2017-02-16 at 22:54:15 by Wicked

1. I'm not sure I follow your point about multiple people wanting to do the same cross. Anyone would be able to do whatever cross they wanted. Just like anyone can breed whatever pure breed they like. Do you mean that multiple people might want to run its breed registry? Or do you perhaps mean multiple people could create two separate breeds/registries formed from the same pure breeds, e.g. "Anglo-Arab" and "part-bred Arab" but with some other difference in breed standard? If so, then you could feasibly get a foal that qualifies as both, and it would be up to you which breed you wanted to register it as. Could you clarify what you meant?

2. While there would be some crosses that would need multiple generations to get there, not all would. Since it's open and player-defined crossbreeds, there would be pretty much any sort. For example, someone could define Anglo-Arab as being any mix of Arabian and Thoroughbred, so the first generation you breed those two pure breeds together you'll get a foal qualified for that registry. This would be an easy crossbreed to achieve, but there could also be difficult ones that take multiple generations to get to, such as those that have certain colour standards. It would be harder and therefore less popular, but some people like a challenge. The generations prior to the first horse that qualifies for one of these more difficult crossbreeds wouldn't necessarily be some unlabelled crossbreed, as there may be other registries it qualifies for.

3. The generic art or silhouette would only be for horses that haven't been registered to a registry. Once they are, they can get the art that registry provides. Whether or not people like the art could form part of their decision towards whether they intend to specialise in that crossbreed. Since clubs/registries have their own banks, can earn money and solicit donations, they could feasibly save up to buy art, or run competitions amongst their members to obtain art, or any number of different methods. Also, we already have custom images in the game.

4. Depending on the definition of the crossbreed, it could be possible to crossbreed out to certain other pure breeds or crosses. If people are too strict with their breed standards I'd imagine the breed would be unpopular and it wouldn't do well, so people would have to be careful how they created new breeds.

Last edited on 2017-02-16 at 23:54:35 by UlyssesBlue (spare)

I love the idea of being able to develop breeds in game. It's something I've always wanted to see in games generally.

I never understood the obsession with art, tbh. For me, the mechanics and the game play are far more important.

To clarify the first one, I was thinking it might get complicated if two people each want to create a breed and name it, but it's actually the same combination/crossbreed. Like person A crosses a TB/Arab/QH/GV and calls it a NananaBathorse and someone else does the exact same combination of breeds and wants to call it a Bobfredwill. I don't think I'd appreciate someone doing the same combination as me and calling it something else and creating their own registry, but maybe that's just me.

As for the second thing... I know technically there are cases where you can cross two breeds together and call it a new one, like with the crosses that already are probably being added, but at the same time I don't necessarily like that anyone and everyone could do that on here and make up their own breed. I don't think we need 50 people crossing the same two breeds and each calling it something different. That seems a little silly, but that's what would happen if you didn't make people cross in at least three breeds. I'm fine with the idea of just calling it a grade horse or something, but trying to call it a new breed every time... eh. And my point still stands about anything requiring the crossing of more than just two or three breeds, where it will take a lot of time for anyone who waits for their horses to be old before breeding.

I still stand by what I said about inconsistencies, also. If people can use whatever art they want, there's going to be different styles all over the place. I know it's already technically in the game and I don't like that version of it either. Luckily it's hard to achieve level 30 and I have yet to come across a horse with a unique image, which I'm very glad for. That's probably my most disliked feature in the game, and it's barely used if at all. It'd drive me nuts if it was happening on a regular basis. While there are many excellent artists on the game, I have yet to see any that have the exact same style as the game art. And there's really no telling if any of the artists around here would be willing, so it's not just an issue of game money. I personally would try go commission someone off DA or somewhere that can very closely mimic the current style and that could require real money. No, not everyone would necessarily do this, but I can hardly see everyone being able to use the current members of the site to do all their art for them.

Overall I just think this would get to messy and chaotic.

Let me clarify with an example of how I expect this system could work in the case of difficult crossbreeds:

Let's say someone wants to create the crossbreed Pintabian, and they decide any horse which is at least 75% Arabian and tobiano marked will qualify for registration. They create the registry and write on the club page the registration requirements. You see this and think it would be a great breed project, so you get a bunch of Arabians and some tobiano-marked breed, and in time you breed them together to get a 50% Arabian cross. Or you could start out by purchasing some part-bred Arabians from someone else. These don't qualify for the Pintabian registry, but someone else has created a registry for a breed they called Arabian Sporthorses, which accept any Arabian cross, so you can register them there if you like, so they're not simply labelled "crossbreed" and you may also have access to some nice art. You then use your tobiano Arabian Sporthorses and breed them to some pure Arabians to get 75% Arabian crosses. Those that are tobiano marked will meet the Pintabian registry requirements, so you submit them and the club's president accepts them. In no more than two generations with some careful breeding, you have produced Pintabians. Those that didn't make it can still be registered as Arabian Sporthorses, and after another generation of breeding may produce offspring that could also be registered as Pintabians. Because of the breed requirements of the Pintabian registry, you could potentially produce one by breeding your own Pintabians to some outside stock such as pure Arabians, some Arabian Sporthorses, or some other Arabian crosses, as well as other Pintabians, so there's no risk of the breed becoming inbred and stale.

@Wicked

I think I understand now, so you'd have two registries for effectively identical crossbreeds that just have a different name. I can see this happening accidentally in the case of easier crossbreeds, where it's just a mix of BreedA and BreedB in any quantity. The approval process I mentioned in my first post, and/or the high cost of creating a registry may cut down on this a lot, so I'd expect it to be rare.

When it comes to cross breeding in my eyes, im totally fine for it.

In my opinion, it grants a pure bred horse more value than a grade horse. Slytherin here and well there ya go xD

As for percentages, i dont care for that, it's a cross. only time i care about percentages is when im looking to buy dwarf reticulated pythons, otherwise i dont care what percentage of paint or friesian or appaloosa my cross horse is. i dont care for that in reality, i wont care for it here.

and whats with this "If people can name their breed whatever they like"? they're not. they're crossing two breeds together, why would they get to name their own breed? it's a TB/paint cross. There, i named it.

as for registries, honestly, i don't think our community is petty enough to have issues break out. For the most part we are extremely lucky to have a strong sense of community, but for those who will have issues with whatever the name is or discipline or anything about it, its as easy as NOT joining it, NOT going to it and putting up with it. I don't like things sometimes and instead of throwing tantrums like a child, i ignore it and move on with my life because that is SO much easier than being a miserable cow.

and as for the art, i for one enjoy the thought of a silhouette. shaboom.

This seems pretty cool. However, I honestly don't like the idea of a silhouette- I like looking at the colors ok

This game already has trouble supporting 20 real breeds. I don't see how it would support "Bob's Quarter Shetland Walkers".

@Potato
Well, "whats with this" mention of naming a breed whatever is that it's brought up in the original post.

"If people can name their breed whatever they like it's only a matter of time until we have a Unicorn registry or similar."

The whole idea is that you can name a registry breed whatever you want and then horses take on that breed name after being registered.

Not sure why you're mentioning pettiness and tantrums either, since I was talking about something that might happen as an honest mistake and create confusion.

But whatever.

@UlyssesBlue
That most recent explanation is a bit clarifying, so thank you. It does sound a little nicer when it's reasonable names like that. I guess what I'm thinking is that there needs to be regulations on what you can name these new registry breeds, but I don't know right now how else to articulate what I'm thinking about that. xD

And yes, that's pretty much what I'm getting at. (:

I think generally I like the idea of crossing whatever types you want, but I'm not super into the idea of the registries. If that kind of crossing becomes a thing I'd much prefer they all just remain labeled as crossbreed without any of the changing. Like it'd be fine for people to create groups and decide who can register, but I don't think they should be able to pick their own breed name or art, and it shouldn't affect how the horse gets classified on its page.

Last edited on 2017-02-17 at 15:33:25 by Wicked

nothing i stated was directly directed at you, wicked, i was just stating some things.
im stating my thoughts on it whilst pulling just a tad from everyone. Nothing was at one person.

and furthermore, yes it may have been posted in main post, but i only got to read half of it, i was on my phone at the time of initial reading and replying and my phone is a junk heap when it comes to actually working half the time.

The whole idea is that you can name a registry breed whatever you want and then horses take on that breed name after being registered.

Not sure why you're mentioning pettiness and tantrums either, since I was talking about something that might happen as an honest mistake and create confusion.
I brought those up same as you brought your points up, because it is something that might happen, and a lot of going ons everywhere lately are petty and tantrums and fit throwing. So no im not saying it will but it could just like mistakes and errors and confusion and whatnot, hence my wording.

But with everything i am not into the registries. im not even active in the club system we have right now if you'll accept this comparison. I have ... or had, i got rid of most of my stock, some horses registered but with how little that actually effects them (except shows from clubs that i dont do) i dont pay mind to the clubs.

essentially, crosses to me on a game shouldn't be too complicated. Though nothing in life is simple except the knowledge that nothing is simple :3

My main concern is player disappearance with a player run registry. Clubs already struggle to keep active presidents each month, what's to stop that happening with a crossbreed registry?

Personally I'm not a huge fan of the idea, I'd much prefer official crossbreeds to player made ones, especially with the amount of commitment involved and an already struggling horse market.