Changing Gypsy Vanner to Irish Cob

GVs seem to have been bred by both Irish Travellers and English Romanichal Travellers, which are different cultural groups. Changing the name on EV is a tricky decision when lots of the organisations centred around GVs haven't updated their names. I don't really mind if the name is changed to Irish Cob or remains the same.

In the past I have researched "Gypsy" (Roma) music and it doesn't seem like there is a clear consensus in the Roma community about whether or not the usage of "Gypsy" is always offensive. The Oxford Dictionary itself marks "Gypsy" as "sometimes offensive". Many Roma people use "Gypsy" self-referentially and identify strongly with it. Others view it as a slur regardless of context. 
 
The Chronical of the Horse article titled "Is It Time For The Gypsy Vanner Horse To Find A New Moniker?" has some interesting stuff. Few different opinions in there from different Roma and non-Roma people.
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“I come from a background of traditional Romany Gypsies—and my dad actually finds the word Traveler really offensive, because the groups are totally different. It’s been watered down because people find the word ‘Gypsy’ offensive, and to be honest, it’s usually non-Gypsy people taking the offense,” says British five-star event rider Phoebe Buckley.
Though Buckley’s career in the horse industry sees her ride an entirely different stamp of horse, she views the success of the distinctive feathered cobs as a particular point of pride.
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The beginning of the cobs’ American story came in 1996, a year after they ostensibly were “discovered” by Dennis Thompson and his late wife, Cindy, of Ocala, Florida, during a trip to the U.K.

So enamored were they with a piebald stallion they’d spotted in a field—which they learned was owned by a Traveler named Fred Walker—that they brokered a deal to buy the horse the following year. In 1996, the Thompsons established the Gypsy Vanner Horse Society using the stallion, renamed Cushti Bok, as their foundation sire.

Thompson said they grappled with what to call the little piebald horses they had imported.
“The aim, from day one, was to bring dignity to the people who started the breed,” he says. The inspiration for the name came when Cindy found a small caption in a copy of “The Coloured Horse and Pony,” by Edward Hart. Under a picture of exactly the type of horse they’d stumbled upon, the text read, “the traditional Gypsy Vanner horse.”
“I said ‘neat name’, and then awoke up every night for the next two years thinking about it,” Dennis recalls. “I thought, ‘Am I really bringing honor by using a word that can be used as a slur?’ ”

The Thompsons consulted the friends they’d met in the Romany and Traveler communities, from whom Dennis says the consensus led firmly in the direction of naming the breed the Gypsy Vanner, rather than the Romany horse, which would negate the input and influence of Traveler cultures beyond the Roma people.

“It was the only word that honored everyone,” he says.
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Harry Pannell, of Sussex, England, part of the youngest generation of a long line of Romany horsemen and women, feels differently.

“It probably isn’t really recognized as culturally offensive in this day and age, as it has become a phrase of pride and racial empowerment,” he explains. But, he points out, its origins as an ethnic misnomer muddy the waters. “If somebody today incorrectly labelled an ethnic group of people by a country’s name due only to their skin color, it would be thought of—quite rightly—as abhorrently ignorant. But now, there are a lot of people of similar descent to my own who are probably not aware of what happened in the Middle Ages.

“Of course they should be proud of their heritage, but the fact is, the term ‘Gypsy’ was, and still is, a phrase given as a name to the Romany people by ignorant medieval British people that didn’t know where the sun went at night, let alone about where ethnicities originated.”

His own family, he says, chooses not to use the term Gypsy self-referentially, instead choosing to call themselves Travelers—and even then, only in conversation with others of the same heritage.

Last edited on 2023-04-10 at 23:47:05 by Ж wox

I agree with and appreciate Wox's reply. Opinions from people--specifically Romani people--both for and against the usage of the word deserve to be heard and seriously considered. Since the word is tied to them--their history and identity--so strongly, their input is of utmost importance and of course most relevant, regardless of what we think or feel about the word.

Personally, I don't really mind either way if the name changes or stays the same. I don't breed Gypsy Vanners and I don't plan to, so I don't have a horse in this race, so to speak lol.

It's a bit of a tricky thing though, considering the word is not actually a slur. Offensive, particularly in certain contexts? Absolutely. But a slur? No. there is a difference between offensive words/terms and actual slurs, and therein lies the problem. Because when it comes to offensive words, opinions are always going to be split, and the issue of the double-edged sword called censorship inevitably becomes involved as well.

If the breed name is changed based on the idea that the word "Gypsy" is offensive, how far should you go? Should the word itself be banned altogether, issuing warnings to players who use it on the forum, their profiles or stables, or in horse names (which has been done on some other games)? If it's bad enough to be changed in game even though it's still the official breed name IRL (in some countries), then surely it's a word that shouldn't be used at all. Except, for some Romani people, it's how they identify and what they prefer to be called, or even further, it is a badge of pride for them. If Romani people who felt like that were playing here on EV, would it be fair to tell them they aren't allowed to use that word, because people who are offended by it (whether they are Romani themselves or not) take priority over them?

Evidently, there are some Romani people who take pride in having a breed named after them. In which case, how fair is it really to try and erase that name? And for those who are offended by the word being used to refer to them personally, how do they feel about it when it is not used to refer to people at all, rather to a breed of animal? There seems to be mixed feelings about it, from what I've seen looking into it, myself. Some may, despite being offended by it in reference to people, not actually care about it being part of a breed name for an animal. Some may find the word offensive regardless of context. And again, some don't find the word offensive at all so long as it's not used derogatorily.

I think it's not such a cut and dried situation as some might feel.

Fundamentally, I think it should be up to Romani people, not us, to decide whether or not the word should be used, both in general and in the name of a horse breed. It tends to be very unproductive for people not part of the group in question (despite good intentions) to determine whether or not something is offensive to that group. Oftentimes, the result is that people who don't and can't have a full understanding of the group's history, culture, or opinions jump the gun and enforce rules or mentalities that are unnecessary at best and problematic/outright offensive at worst. I have both witnessed this happen, and been part of a group on the receiving end of those well intended but poorly executed attempts to make things "right."

But it doesn't seem like there are any Romani people on EV that are active/interested in participating in this thread so far, and even outside of the EV sphere, Romani people are not in agreement about the use of the word. Some don't care either way, some are offended, and some are proud of it and use it.

Personally, I don't think that at this time a change of breed name here for GVs is necessary, particularly because it is not being used derogatorily, is still one of the official breed names, and is arguably the most known name to boot. But as I mentioned to start with, while I don't think it's necessary, I wouldn't be upset whether it changed or remained the same. I think it's an interesting discussion to have though. I do--and will continue to--call the breed Gypsy Vanners both IRL and online considering it is the official breed name where I'm from and I do not find the popular substitution (or really any I've heard) to be an adequate one. Of course, this is so long as it remains an official breed name IRL. If that ever changes (and I would hope the change is initiated by Romani people if that happens), I will be happy to use the new officially recognized name. Until then, I don't see a reason to use any other.

Last edited on 2023-04-26 at 11:57:07 by Aeromase

Darn..I was hesitating....but i clicked "I support this"

I initially supported this suggestion. However, I decided to change my vote to no support for now after seeing Wox's post.

I am not Romani, so I don't have a right to decide if the word "gypsy" is offensive. I initially supported it because I was under the impression that Romani considered the word to be offensive. However, Wox's post makes me realize that it may be not the case. I think we should do more research before changing the name as Gypsy Vanner may be a name that holds value.

Wox's post reminded me of a similar situation with the ASL sign for Native Americans. 

In ASL, we had a sign word for Native American for many years. The sign itself is inspired by the feather headdress which is worn by specific tribes. In the 2000s, there was a movement by activists to change the original sign to this sign which is inspired by their facial paints. The supporters of the movement claimed the feather sign was offensive and that we should change it to the facial paint sign. However, some people argued that some tribes also do not use facial paints as their traditions. That led to two new signs: "Indigenous" and Back of Hand.

By the 2010s, we have 4 different signs for "Native American". It confused a lot of people because there was no general consensus on whether the first two signs were offensive or not. The indigenous sign is for the word "indigenous" so some people get confused when we use that sign because they aren't sure if we are referring to Native American or Indigenous. The word "Indigenous" can refer to non-Native Americans so it makes more sense if we have a separate sign for Native American. As for Back of Hand, some people also think it's offensive because it may or may not refer to skin color tone.

I met a Deaf Native American when I went to college. At that time, Back of Hand is considered the most acceptable and non-offensive sign. In the class discussion related to Native Americans, we used that sign and that girl interrupted the discussion to ask "What does that sign word mean?" and she was referring to the Back of Hand sign.
We were so shocked because she doesn't even know what that word means despite being a Native American herself. We explained to her that the sign represents Native American and she asked us why we used it, not the feather one. We explained that there was controversy behind the sign and she thought it was dumb. Her entire tribe used the feather sign and her tribe do not use a feather headdress. None of them found it offensive. 

Around a year or two later, I started to see many deaf Native American making posts about the sign word for Native American.

General Summary of this:

Gypsy is not a racial slur. Gypsy refers to a people originating in South Asia and traditionally having an itinerant way of life, living widely dispersed across Europe and North and South America and speaking a language (Romani) that is related to Hindi; a Romani person. It also means a nomadic or free-spirited person. or even a nonunionized or unlicensed business. The horse was called Gypsy Vanner in honor of the free-spirited Romani people who bred them. Add onto the fact that it was the Romani people who named them Gypsy Vanners to start with. So how is it offensive if the people who bred them named them?

this thread has been inactive for a full year, i'm not sure what you stand to gain from copying and pasting an out of context discord comment into here when nobody on the site has been talking about it, but i suppose i'll also restate what i said while we're at it.

first of all there's this article which actually explains the history behind the renaming of the Irish Cob, it was named by two Americans who decided the breed didn't have a name and picked one. they consulted the local Romani groups and decided this was the best name that "honored everyone". as i said in discord, i do not really see how this works when Romani people are not a hivemind and are a large and diverse group of people across the world with their own thoughts, feelings, and personal history with the word, the article itself addresses how different the opinions of Romani people can be. but anyway.

secondly as i said in discord, the opinions of Romani people are often not considered in these kinds of conversations so i linked some articles written by and about Romani people.

article written by a Romani woman about how the word affects her people
article about a Romani professor who educates people about his culture
article written by a Romani woman about how she feels about her people and culture

again, these articles only show some points of view from a few individuals and their words cannot be used as a statement made by all of their people collectively. my point is not whether or not the word is a slur, but that it's not up to me or hardly anyone else in this thread to decide for Romani people how they should feel about a word historically screamed at them as they were being persecuted and their families were being destroyed. some prefer it over any other word, some would rather never hear it again, how they wish to identify and whether it's a slur is absolutely not something i or anyone else should have any input in.

one thing to clear up from earlier in this thread, Romanian people are not Romani people. in fact, there is much open hostility towards Romani people who live in Romania.


"taking a side" in this topic when it isn't at all about me will overwrite somebody's voice in either way i choose, so i will not.

Last edited on 2024-08-09 at 11:03:48 by forgottenland

Gypsy Vanner is the name created in 1996 when they were first imported into the United States...they aren't known by that name outside of North America, well at least they weren't until the GVHS was created here.

Even so, not sure why this thread is being commented on? The game is no longer in active development which is well known by everyone that has commented on it recently. I suggest if there is a personal issue between any players that it please be kept off the forums, let's keep this game a peaceful and pleasant place for everyone and not turn it into a platform for our personal vendettas.