Official Showing Discussion Topic

Hello all!

We’d like to start this discussion on showing to propose some ideas and give you all a chance to share your thoughts and feedback on how to better showing within the game.

There are some issues with stat monsters, for example, which have prompted suggestions about adding more levels to showing. Show levels could continuously increase in this way however, so we would suggest another idea - we could cap the number of stats that would be counted in the International 5 level (the highest show level) and only take into consideration a maximum of 5,999 stats for any horse competing at that level. This would prevent the need to add more show levels or to nerf breeding (a step we very much want to avoid).

More ideas like these are what we hope to generate with this discussion. We hope to understand what other specific pain points everyone might be experiencing with showing, whether it’s with stat monsters, loss of income on lower level horses, or struggles with non-speciality stats. Are there ideas like bringing back stat-based feed you’ve thought of that could be of help? Please share them here!

And please remember we want to keep this discussion productive, problem-solving focused, and lighthearted. We may have some things we have to fix in the current system, but we’re here to work on that together, and want to keep this thread cooperatively themed.

Whether one of the ideas shared here has inspired you or you have another thought in mind, please share your thoughts! And please feel free to use the like button if someone shares a thought you agree with!

First and foremost- I think this is a good addition, especially the auto creator- saves me from trying to go back and look at which shows have the least. 

I think a good addition would be to have all entries have a chance to gain stats- just like in real life, they still run and horses still gain experience and gain ribbons even with 1 entry. With the addition of the auto creator/100 additional shows, it might create more shows than entries can be entered with 5+ more which is a waste if there aren't a possibility of stats. This also provides more opportunities for more novice players to have really nice horses in the beginning.

I have always thought there should be an additional showing tier (Olympic) after international. With olympic shows, i think keeping the 5 entries to earn stats requirement. This way it doesn't take away the option for stat monsters, but it would allow others to catch up in the lower ranks.  We can't claw back the stat monsters, but maybe we can shorten the gap to get up to them. I would like to know how the cap would work in the suggestion above- which 5999 stats would be counted. Especially if a 3 y/o can start out with 7,000+ stats? 

The cap concept is to deal with horses having overly high stats in the International 5 level. It would only count a maximum of 5,999 stats, regardless of if a competitor has more. The goal would be to even out the competition so horses that have in excess of 6,000 stats are not always guaranteed winners. The idea would be to prevent having to reset stats on horses that are at that level. 

As for which stats it would count, it would work the same as the existing system for determining which show level a horse is in. I don't have the exact details of that mechanic in mind at this moment though so I can't give a rundown on it.

The issue of horses being able to be born with stats well above the International show levels is another one that's difficult. We could reset their stats forcibly so they wouldn't be so excessively high, but I can't imagine that would be a popular option. Olympic does sound like a reasonable next grade category, but if added how would we want prevent horses from exceeding that level too? If those very high stat horses continue to be bred their stats may simply continuously increase, which is a difficulty.

How about making levels "wider"? I mean, to elongate lower levels, so N1 could be, for example, from 100 to 200 stats, N2 from 200 to 300 and so on... (added an example below, you can modify it as you wish) 

I personally think, lower levels just pass so quickly, I would prefer if reaching certain grades would be much harder and would have higher prestige to reach. (I'm working with my 2nd generation thoroughbreds, and many of them reach Na3 when they become 20 years old... Upcoming generations will soon compete in International levels...)
It could also help with filling in shows, since more horses would belong to the same level.

Modified levels could be:
N1 100-199
N2 200 -299
N3 300-399
N4 400-499
N5 500 -599
L1 600-699
L2 700-799
L3 800-899
L4 900-999
L5 1000-1,099
R1 1,100-1,299
R2 1,300-1,499
R3 1,500-1,699
R4 1,700-1,899
R5 1,900-2,099
Nat1 2,100-2,499
Nat2 2,500-2,999
Na3 3,000-3,999
Na4 4,000-4,999
Na5 5,000-5,999
I1 6,000-6,999
I2 7,000-7,999
I3 8,000-8,999
I4 9,000-9,999
I5 10,000-10,999 (capping at 10,999? or addig Olympic)

Last edited on 2022-10-28 at 13:41:22 by Olivia

I like Olivia's suggestion- I also think that NSS should be weighted heavier than just straight out stats. I dont know what the formula looks like, but a lot of the 7000+ stats don't have low NSS, so if you have 7000+ stats with lets say 300 NSS, vs a 5,000 stat horse with 45 NSS, the lower stats should win. It'll force not to just breed/show for as many stats as possible and hopefully kill 2 birds with one stone.

I like Olivia's suggestion of modified show levels. I also like Reaper's ideas. Adding in an Olympic grade, having the chance for stat gain for horses more than just the top 3. Also stat gain possible even if there are only 3 entries per show instead of 5. 

I also think payouts should increase some. The game itself could add in more money to each prize pot for shows. 
I think that removing the level requirements to upgrade tack should be removed. New players have enough challenges when starting up and they should be able to upgrade their tack right away to increase their chances of being able to win shows. 

ooo i do like the Olympic level idea, and extending out the stat range for levels too! that gives plenty of space before the playerbase as a whole starts hitting the cap. it's not a permanent fix for sure but i think while working towards a better solution we still need some breathing room, if that makes sense?

though wouldn't a cap naturally encourage people to breed down nss even without changing how nss weighs in shows? like if you know that your capped horses will have trouble placing if their nss is too high compared to the competition, your next step would be to lower nss right? there's no point continuing to breed high nss horses if you're already past the cap and want to earn a lot from shows. in turn that would mean nss becomes even more important to gameplay, so if a cap is put in place i think changes need to be made to make the nss system more understandable.

but either way nss having a bigger weight like how Reaper said may help with high levels though, since even with the allocation Olivia lined out you could still have horses with a nearly 1k stat difference competing against each other. so a lower stat/lower nss horse having a chance against a higher stat/higher nss horse might be more balanced. alternatively, removing or weakening the nss weight would make those levels even harder to compete in.


also on the topic about tack, i was recently thinking that tack grade is kind of weird right now? like Olympea said^ it's a hurdle for new players, and also certain types of 5/5 tack are very easily bought cheap from other players making upgrades unnecessary for some types and necessary for others. right now we're all usually just aiming for 5/5 tack right away and the lower grades are just sitting there and sometimes in our way. so i kind of wonder if removing tack grade entirely would be a good idea or not? or maybe we could have some show types that actually require lower grade tack...?

or, shows could "cap" tack too, like:
novice shows count all tack as having 1/5 grade stats regardless of actual tack grade.
local counts all 2/5 and higher grade tack as having 2/5 grade stats. 1/5 tack is counted as 1/5.
regional counts all 3/5 and higher grade tack as having 3/5 grade stats. 1/5 tack is counted as 1/5 and 2/5 is 2/5.
and so on.

so a new player can jump into showing with their 1/5 tack and upgrade later, and the lower grade tack isn't useless now. once you're well into the game you can just ignore it completely and use 5/5 tack on all your horses but you don't have an edge over newer and poorer players.


(also, we had stat feed?? o.O)

I really like many of the above mentioned ideas (weighted NSS, change in tack - although I'm torn between Olympea's and bubbles' idea).

If I remember well, before recode it was much harder and slower process to gain stats. I think that gaining stats should also be slowed down a little bit and NSS+horse experience should get more importance (in shows as well). I think, shows could give stats much rarely and much less (max. 1-2 instead of max. 3). [It could still give more stats than riding school, but much lower than now.]
I agree with Olympea to discard the 5 entry-stat gain cap, and I would modifiy the winning chances of stats to something like that (percentages can be modified as you wish, altough I think the lower the better):

1st place: 35% of winning stats
2nd: 30%
3rd: 25%
4th onward: 20%

That way we could all have the chance to win stats in shows, but top 3 places would have slightly higher chances. I'm a little concerned for players making shows for only 1-2 horses for gaining stats if the 5 entry cap is discarded, but this percentage system could maybe keep it at bay.

Last edited on 2022-10-28 at 22:48:40 by Olivia

I'm quite glad that the issues I found in my stat/showing research and suggestions- such as removing tack upgrade restriction or adjusting how tack is used- to combat them have come up here too (I would link it here but unfortunately it contains some secret info >>;;). I think some of these could work with tweaking. Also apologising in advance for a super long post.

Here is some information on showing collected from articles and comments that I can share from research that may be useful-

Show Scoring  
1. Speciality Stats + small % of non-speciality stats.
Dressage: grooming + age are also counted. Unsure how age is used.
2. Specialty bonus, horse is entered in the same type of show as its speciality. *
3. Horse care being done contributes a small bonus for each type done.
4. Tack bonuses added on top. **
5. Luck calculated. Lower level horses can have high luck and make a big impact on scores, while higher levels will see non-existent/consistent results. ***

Most common complaints
- Not enough earnings
Mostly compounded by not wanting to enter higher entry shows when they would earn higher winnings.

- Not gaining stats
Stats dependent on placing, relates to below point and to too many entries in a show.  

- Not enough entries in shows
Under 5 entries in shows = no results. People don’t want to enter low entry shows in case they don’t fill up. Mostly manual entries.

Some findings
Players are encouraged to enter low to maximize placing 1-3rd out of 5 for shows for the chance of stat gain. However won’t break even as only high entry shows give out more money.

The current system contradicts how to play in order to “progress” horses. Either enter high entry shows and have less chance of winning but higher earnings if you do, or keep to low entries to maximize chance of winning +stats but earn less overall.  

The scores outlined in a 2018 news post has an outdated point of speciality shows, this could be removed or subbed for something else like conformation or even personality if those were added.

Should it be time to change stats being gained in shows? Players are very set in earning them all the time in shows, and it has been the source of many many complaints/questions over the years. Should they be made to be guaranteed like Riding School is to encourage showing? Initial reasons for changing the stats to 5 entries are to keep more competitiveness in grades.
i.e 5 entries stay as top 3 placings. But 8-10 entrants could be top 5 have a chance of winning stats/exp/earnings? Could encourage higher entry shows for a better chance. Knock on effect of higher earnings overall. However, if a horse placed first and gained 20 stats in a 10 entry show, can easily add on 100 stats vs the current 40 stats max. - Could lead back to too much stat gain issues unless breeding is adjusted.

There is initial confusion as to how to show properly when cubing is an option and the default thought process is higher stats quickly = better results (especially from other SIMS). This causes problems when members decide to show and fail immediately, especially with the tack disadvantage. Should the welcome bundle include grade 5 tack to start their foundation horse with? Or do tack grades need to be reconsidered?

Unfair to always rely on deluxe when currently active deluxe don’t play the horse side of EV, most showing people are basic accounts buying autocare/show. Most deluxe are only buying deluxe for the avatar/signature aspect. Should basics be also allowed to make limited shows? - This point may be mitigated by the recent show update. 


What I think so far on the thread itself, 

A lot of the focus seems to be on higher levels, so I would also remind not to forget that any adjustments you make for those would also apply lower down and the impact of that also. Unless they are specifically like River's suggestion of having a cap past x stats. 

The issue with trying to have a stronger NSS focus is that it detracts from the gameplay freedom, which is already quite divided. I wouldn't recommend having a higher weighting on NSS or trying to focus on it more as the playing field in showing will get very unbalanced again. The reason the NSS % score was added in shows was so that lower and pre-code NSS horses did not always win against foundation NSS horses. So I'm not convinced that changing NSS is the right solution, it seems to me that we would be going back to the way it was before.

It's a bit the same with adding stats to placement, horses already gain so much stats from breeding and training that adding even more stats to showing without first addressing the stat monster issue would be a recipe for further disaster. So personally I am wary of these types of suggestions being added. However, I would much prefer more opportunity to be rewarded with stats through showing IF the other issues are addressed (which is a whole other discussion in itself).

Adding more show levels is something I both agree and disagree on, we have quite few entries in some disciplines and depending on the time of day you enter, I think if you were to both expand the grade level, in which case you would HAVE to make the scoring more competitive for more entries, and add more grades it might work. But I'm not sure on this as a solid solution just yet. It's something that can't be done infinitely and I'm not sure where there's enough competition currently outside of Nationals maybe for it to make much of a difference? 

The tack I am already behind, the upgrade limit should be removed, or only a portion of the tack stats should be counted for each grade. = It is reminiscent of pre-code EV which I like. (I also petition to bring back the different feed bags in some way). 

Payout increase already happened for shows, so I'm not sure if increasing them more would help. I'm not seeing issues with payout with a mixed grade herd and mostly make double what I spent. I know it's not as great at lower level, though I wonder if changing the tack score/upgrades would help with that? 

Other things I think would be worth considering in showing is using other elements besides stats, i.e parts of conformation or even bringing back a use for points. What if points just added some kind of experience score? It's a non-breedable and something you can change about a horse. Lose all the time? You would still be gaining points that might tip the score for your next show. 

Also. Gelding/spayed mare boosts for shows. It's not going to solve anything but I think it would add another avenue to playstyle and competition. If they dominate the competition, they're not going to be able to pass it on but it may make you some more money? Who knows, might be something to think on too. 

I just want to echo that having "personality" on horses would be super fun, that would be a great addition. 

It looks like there's some really good discussion happening here (I've been reading through), so I'm excited at the possibility of taking some of these ideas and bringing them into the game for real. :D

There's some really interesting suggestions here!

I was thinking, for the "stat monsters" that are our there, would it be possible to have an alternative showing division/system to show those horses that would qualify? I recall the number to be 5,999 suggested as a cap for showing stat considerations in the standard showing formula. Perhaps we could create higher visions with stat caps like this. 5,999, 9,999, 14,999, 19,999, etc.

What about a "Grand Prix" (or whatever else you wanna call it) show/tournament for horses that are in those really high levels/stats/caps? They could be shown similarly (script-wise) as the other horses.
-Divisions could be divided by breed (purebred and grade horses)
-Weekly/monthly free-for-all where all horses compete for high purse prizes (must have qualified by winning grand prix in their own breed division prior)
-Adds more challenge and exclusivity to some showing events while still engaging players that have top stated horses.

I share this hoping others with more knowledge can add to it and fill in some blanks. I'm thinking about site growth and what can we do to show the super-high-stat horses before people get bored and leave them here feeling like there's nothing more to do. Player retention is important and I think a lot of these suggestion and revamp ideas for showing have the potential to make things a lot more immersive for players.

Honestly the idea of personalities is a fabulous one. Because certain temperaments and personalities do contribute so much to success in real life. Plus, it would add a dimension to the horses that could help flesh them out further. It would even be interesting to have the potential for horse temperaments to change. Like certain events could trigger it? Like an incident in a show or being left at the rescue center or even a level of neglect? I'm not sure exactly how it would work...but it could be fun! There could even be additional training to help rehabilitate horses who develop less desirable traits. Maybe players could even work towards a rehabilitation license or something!

And I think conformation should impact performance. Like, if I have a show jumper with bad knees, I feel like they should be less successful? I would imagine age would also impact things. An older, more experienced horse in dressage, for instance, would perhaps perform better than a greener horse? While an older racehorse might struggle to keep up with younger ones. 

It kind of feels like breeding and showing should be more ... I guess comprehensive? Like all of the attributes of a horse should impact how it performs.

I almost worry that because conformation has had no affect on show performance for so long that it would steer some players away if it was added in. Reason being there are players who have not invested anything into improving conformation for several years now...so their 5th generation horse that they have worked so hard on getting to could suddenly be a show dud. 

I think a great alternative would be to offer either conformation or performance shows. So horses can enter 10 of either one, or a combo of like 5 and 5...or however someone might want to split it. Just 10 total in a day. This way players who have been working on their lines for years without taking conformation into consideration still have a shot in the shows and those who have worked hard on conformation can finally have their chance to shine. 

Also I agree in a small boost for geldings/spayed mares. 

Last edited on 2022-10-31 at 18:56:21 by Olympeaᵐ

i think i understand maple's point about nss, whether or not it becomes weaker (or removed entirely) if other systems like confo, tack, and/or points are refined and given weight in shows then that could be more balanced. a lot more options for increasing show potential instead of only having to work with a system some may not like. and we could still have confo shows where confo is now the biggest factor while stats play little to no role, so that idea isn't off the table if confo starts to influence normal showing. it's just that for so long nss has been the key part to successfully playing EV so it's hard to not think of it as the most important thing to worry about. and i'm worried that too many things contributing to show performance would become overwhelming.
i like the idea of certain confo affecting certain disciplines, like how Nen said with jumper = knee confo. similar to the current way of using 2 stats per discipline, confo stats could be grouped together with 2 or more per discipline. maybe 3ish per discipline since there's a lot more confo stats lol.

having different ways of showing that still involve the same factors (but in different ways) could also encourage players to buy from others, reduce how much distance is between players who breed for nss vs stats vs confo. a purely nss breeder can consider bringing in high confo lines to breed a more well rounded show horse and so on. it could affect our current horses yes, but i feel like no matter what change we make there will be a "growing pains" stage anyway. nss being brought in didn't come without players feeling divided on it from what i hear. i think inevitably some of us will dislike whatever major changes are made so maybe it's best to just try to focus on what's better for the long-term? both adding confo weight to regular shows and keeping confo and regular showing separate have their pros and cons imo. similarly, both new player retention and old player retention are things to consider.

stats and money get brought up a lot but it does make sense that just increasing how much we earn in those categories is kind of a bandage solution, extra earnings can't help that much if people are having trouble settling into EV in the first place. but it's definitely several different things at once that are making shows feel off right now and not just one single issue.

and yes to gelding and spayed mare bonuses! o.o iirc people have been kind of mixed on that? i thought it was weird at first lol, but i now think it would be good switch things up and give players another option to consider when showing. and there's really no market for our poor geldings right now c':

i'm still for extending out levels and/or adding more but only if other changes are coming for sure, by itself it wouldn't feel like much help.