CONFIRMED True Roan + Overo TB filly

Thought you guys might find this interesting. WINNING COLOURS FARM has sold LILAC IN STYLE [by PROFILE IN STYLE by LILAC HILL] to an American buyer. She is JC registered, meaning we could be seeing roan babies on the track in a few years. She tested positive for both roan and overo.

Buyers name was not disclosed.

We can't share photo's right?

Here's her pedigree.

Her breeder's page on her

Wow, she's so pretty!!! :)

Frame is nothing new.

The roan comes from her being descended from Catch a Bird. Not really sure how I feel about it, honestly. The JC is already so freaking confused over roan being in the breed, which it's not for all intents and purposes.

Catch A Bird was never actually formally tested for the Roan gene. She is the first frame + roan to be registered, so while it's not "new", it would be new to a lot of people here.

If this line keeps breeding true, it may get thrown into the breed. Just 10 years ago people foamed at the mouth suggesting TBs had any genes that cause white markings or dilutions AT ALL. Now creams and white marked are generally accepted (though the racing community enjoys not testing their horses so new lines of splash and white spotting aren't being researched as they refuse test submit their horses for genetic testing as it might besmirched their programs.)

I'm sure we've got a while yet before it's recognized as Catch A Bird's owner was super shady and had all of the original horses in this line seized for abuse. He's also dead so it can't be confirmed if he was the original roan carrier or if it mutated in his offspring.

Last edited on 2016-08-16 at 17:09:01 by marmist » ♚

I like interesting coloured TBs, but I'm not a huge fan of people wanting to breed for colour and most other racing industry people aren't either. Windsor Park Stud has a white mare that has foaled two white foals and one solid. And there's a splash white filly running in Australia at the moment (but she's pretty good, won her debut by a large margin).

There is no test for a roan gene.

There is a test for a marker genetic scientists believe to be associated with roan patterning. They have not found roan yet. Markers and genes are different things in molecular genetics.

I don't believe Catch a Bird himself was roan. Neither of his parents were roan and while KIT is infamous for being extremely unstable and mutating like nobody's business, it would be nearly impossible for it to just mutate out of thin air. I personally theorize that he was a skewed rabicano, a pattern which does exist in the breed. He had an obvious skunk tail and most of the few roan progeny he has produced also have skunk tails as well as noticeable ribbing along their barrels in the roaning.

It is thought that rabicano, like roan, is on or near KIT. Since they are both roaning patterns, it wouldn't be totally out of the ballpark to think that an already broken pattern broke further upon breeding and crossed the line into roan. Since neither roan nor rabicano have been mapped, who's to say they aren't related, but it's still just a theory at best.

On dilutions and white patterns. Whoever got their panties in a twist 10 years ago about it are idiots, considering that some very famous diluted Thoroughbreds existed and were very popular in the 60s and 70s (and of course, cream didn't pop up out of nowhere either, so long before even then as well). Thoroughbreds don't have conventional splash. None that have been tested have come back positive for any of the three known splash genes. They do have something splash-like, but it would take cooperative breeders to even try to figure out what that gene is...

Only relatively recently have the JC started registering palominos (and all double dilutes as palominos regardless of base color... somebody stab me). Heck, they've only recently started registering horses as BLACK instead of dark bay/brown. I don't even understand the registry anymore... they incorrectly register grays as roan, but all of CaB's progeny are registered as their base color. Like really JC? Really?

Back on the roan, considering that the only breeding roans are mares, it's unlikely that they or their offspring will produce enough to really get roan going in the breed.

The JC is still refusing to acknowledge that fading blacks exist and that black horses aren't just sharpie black at all times :/ Horses have been prevented from racing because they show brown spots and are "mis registered". I think someone needs to sit them down with a book and be like "come on."

It's amazing how little a lot of racing breeders know about genetics. Hell, the nonsense that goes down on posts of the the more recent splashy looking and white spotting foals are 99% people claiming everything is either a Sabino, a "real white horse" or that a paint must have snuck in because the parents aren't very white.

I really wish the breeders would cooperate more. It's not that expensive to submit their horses for this research. It's not even breeding "for color" if the horses have talent. Then you get the hunter tb crowd who is playing a weird "who can get the most genes onto one horse!" game.

It kind of seems like the gene is only passing to female offspring. I do know some of them had a blue eyed colt I think but I can't find photos of him. These horses have been sold twice and it's like they didn't exist until hitting this new farm.

The documented offspring are all female at least. Odd Colours (who is MIA afaik), Slip Catch, Lavender Fields and Lilac Hill.

Edit; I forgot about Red Noble (gelding) and Goldhill Park (never bred).

Last edited on 2016-08-17 at 18:50:19 by marmist » ♚

"Or that a paint must have snuck in"

Um... these people realize that Paints ARE loud Thoroughbreds (or Quarters or Appendixes) right? The only reason the breed (APH) has tobiano is because really far back in the bloodlines tobiano was mixed in through grade mares. Lol people.


I don't think there are any sex-linked color genes in horses, but KIT genes are linked to extension. Even though roan hasn't been mapped, the marker strongly suggests a place within KIT.

Slip Catch is bay roan with a red dam. This means the Catch a Bird line's roan is connected to the dominant E at extension. Any red-based foals that may be produced down the line from these roan mares should not be able to inherit the roan. This will make it difficult to continue the pattern, since most of the roan mares have been bred to red studs and just got lucky in passing on the dominant E.