Calling Like-Minded People

@Hades... I called SUGGESTING that other horses are not high quality as bullying, not doing whatever they want in their stables. Read carefully, please...

Could we please keep this conversation productive? Arguing about something that someone else said is really the exact opposite. 

Lately, I've seen more players shoving suggesting "overbreeding creates best show horses" into other players' mouth instead of players shoving suggesting "overbreeding is bad" into other players' mouth. Both sides have different perspective of high quality. "There is no "high quality" in horse which can't win a single show". Therefore, you are "SUGGESTING that other horses are not high quality". Please do remember that some players do not breed for shows. You literally are suggesting that riding school, conformation focused, color focused, non overbred horses aren't high quality.

There's freedom. ONLY IF you guys (both sides) stop thinking about others and breed for yourself (aka going private). Both sides will never win. This war is getting ridiculous.

I am done here. it is getting ridiculous.

EDIT:
As someone who had been bullied for years, I do not appreciate it when you use 'bullying' and accusing others for 'bullying' carelessly. Please choose your words carefully next time.

Last edited on 2018-11-05 at 12:01:19 by Hades

I really don't care how people play and what they do with their horses. It's their choice. What I care about is how people disrespects each other by marking their horse as high quality cause it has no inbred or less foals. I saw A LOT of selling posts when someone wrote "HIGH QUALITY HORSE FOR SALE, CLEAR PEDIGREE, LESS THAN 3 FOALS!". This is the only thing I'm talking about so again, I don't care, and I will never care what people are doing with their pixels. And I never called someone's horses as less quality. So I will appreciate if you will stop telling me I do and say things I don't :)

Last edited on 2018-11-05 at 11:46:17 by Carin Ravensdale

Well, time for me to step in because I always do anyway.  And I've been avoiding this thread while I watch where it goes.

As the opposite of Confessor, I feel like I've quite easily made myself known as despising the practice of overbreeding and inbreeding horses as a way to get ahead in the game, or get better show horses, I should say.  I keep members around me that follow along the same line of thinking generally, and trade horses with them, as well as sell others on the open market.  I try to put forth as much into this game as I'm drawing out of it, by offering foals that I breed to my standards into the market.  I don't buy horses that don't fit into my standards, but I do buy horses that do.   I don't let myself stagnate as long as I can help it, unless I can't find horses fitting my standard.

I'll be the first to admit that my standards are high, and that I believe horses not fitting at least close to them are inferior horses.  There's no offense intended, but it's the truth in my thinking.  If you dislike it, then don't sell me your horses or buy my own, that's your right.  I don't care all that much either way, you can literally play this game on your own. If everyone hated the standard that I hold myself to, my horses wouldn't sell, and I would have to edit them.  But they sell, at least most of the time.  The economy hurts us all.  But I still buy horses I like.

One thing this site has to do is to determine is what we're all aiming for, and what standards we're willing to bend.  I'm willing to bend on overbreeding.  Overbreeding one of my own horses, right now, would not be the end of the world.  I could have a horse with 10-15 foals out there and it wouldn't effect a good market.  It wouldn't even effect this bad market.  What does is when I have a good horse I let have 50 foals.  Then someone else has another with 50.  Then another with 30.  Another with 25.  And then we all breed those lines together so that you can't breed to another without inbreeding.  Which might not be a problem for you, but it would be for those trying to keep everything fresh.  Then you have a stint where everyone is bringing up foundation herds and there's nothing lined out there to breed to.  

The individual sets their own standard.
Popularity sets the site standard.
Goals should set the site standard.

Do we want to have a productive talk about fixing the economy?  Focus.  What's the main point of the site?  Showing is a good one.  Creation of good showing horses that could become good breeders and breathe life into the economy.  But why show when I could just cube-convert and school for their entire lives.  Alright, then showing needs to have a better rewards system, something that makes even me want to show so that I can sell a half raised good showing foal to someone like Confessor, who will continue on with it and make it to the top of the charts.  Then she'll breed it and continue the line.  But that means as a breeder I need to breed horses that they'd want to show.  I'm not going to bend on my inbreeding, but I can make a horse they'd want without it, and the market would continue.  I think we could agree on that idea at least, that we want horses to show well.  Which means we do need to avoid cubed horses, at least badly cubed ones (because I cube-boost foundations).

We also need to cut down on the foundation availability.  I see it's an issue, even though I enjoy making herds by just throwing money into it.  It's not the best for the site though, and I'd be completely willing to be allowed a weekly or even monthly allotment of horses.  Then if I need more, you guys better have some breeders or showers or something out there for me to breed to.  I know I'll be able to find something without inbreeding or overbreeding, or even something with a bit better level of overbreeding, like under 15 foals.  I could deal with that.   But we need to be able to compromise and decide.  And then put forth the suggestion to Abbey.   Overbreeding and inbreeding are issues in certain breeds, but I don't think they're ruining the economy.  People not buying (and not selling, when there isn't this huge dump of horses for sale) is.  People having tons of horses isn't an issue.  People creating foundation herds in lieu of buying from others is.  Foundation herds are good, of course, we need fresh blood, but the huge buy and dump issue is, well, an issue.

If we can decide that a good showing horse is the sign of a good horse, then we can all go home happy.  I can breed with an eye on overbreeding and inbreeding, others can breed on a horse that can or is doing well in shows, no matter the pedigree.  You don't have to buy my foals, I don't have to buy yours, but if we're working towards that goal, we eventually will cross our paths.  I want to breed horses people will buy, if the focus is a show horse that'll make them money, then I can breed a good show horse in my own rights that'll still sell.  If my horses do as well as those that are pedigreed and crossed, they'll sell even better.

In short, here's my ideas to fix things, bar any form of breeding practice:
- horses that will show well should be the main focus, which means:
-- ability to breed non-specialty stats down to lower amounts than normal foundations
-- good returns from choosing to show (maybe horses can even get -better- (1% boost, or something) the more they show, whether or not they're winning them, to help promote it).  -- would have to think about the detriments of this.
-- slowing down of cubing somehow would be nice.

- stop the infinite foundations.
- buy and sell horses from others that fit your standards.  Don't stop buying because 'the economy is so bad right now' - it's not helping it by refusing to buy. 

Abbey doesn't want to change anything with this because she doesn't want to enrage half the playerbase, so compromise.  Some of us are going to be upset in some way, but the suggestions above aren't going to stop anyone from playing the game they are right now, not really.  You could make big herds before the recode, you talked to people to do it.  Let's come up with something, and somehow get it to Abbey.  I'd be fine with a list of suggestions that people could at least live with, it can only make things better.   Let's figure something out and get it to Abbey however we can, in hopes that she'll see that we just want something done, and we're fine with her doing anything at all.

And I'm done, finally.  Hopefully you found at least some portion of this as something that'll help the site at least, not hinder it.  Because in the end I could care less about how anyone on the site breeds except for myself.  I care about the success of my own horses, and what I can put out there for other people.  I think these suggestions will at least help the place we're at.

food for thought: a vast majority of the overbred/inbred horses I've seen on the game also have high non-spec stats and therefore would not make good show horses.

I see I need to clear some things up about my intentions.

1.  This is 100% not about controlling other people.  This is specifically for the people who have thought "I would breed this way, but I don't think anyone would buy my horses."  I have come across MULTIPLE people who have said this.  This conversation is about giving people a space to see that there are people who would buy their horses - who would be eager to buy them, and offer their up as well.

2.  To build on 1, if you are not interested in breeding this way, no problem.  This topic is not about you.  Breed how you like.  I encourage you to ignore this.  This is not supposed to be a debate thread - this is exactly what it said in the title: "Calling Like-Minded People."  If you aren't like-minded, cool!  You can pass by and it won't affect you at all.  This is for other people to find each other.

3.  I do not believe one way of breeding is "better" than another.  Everyone has their own goals.  If your goal is to have a horse with pretty colors, cool!  Do that how you want.  If your goal is to have "clean" lines, cool!  Have at it.  The only thing in this game that shows any outside judgment is the showing system, so that is the only way that a horse can possibly be inferior or superior in any measurable way.  The horse that shows better is superior to the horse that shows worse, no matter how it was bred, but only as far as showing goes, and only if you care about showing.  Some people don't.  That is fine.  So, if your ideal show horse is one that not only wins, but has "clean" lines, cool!  Breed that!  But those horses are only superior to you, personally.  They are not superior objectively.

In summary, I believe in freedom of choice in how you play the game.  I will defend, and have defended this vehemently.  (I will also let you know if what you are doing is negatively impacting someone else, but I won't try to force you to stop.)  I believe that the superiority of a horse depends on the goals of the individual breeder, except in showing, and only if you care about showing.  

This topic is for like-minded people to find each other, because many have come to believe there aren't enough like-minded people to support them in the market.  This topic is to encourage them that it may be feasible to play the way they want.

This is not a debate topic.  If you do not want to play this way, please move along.  It will not harm you to allow us to play the game the way we prefer, or to try to communicate with each other.

As for me putting my money where my mouth is, this is my story.

I had a beautiful herd.  My Chincoteagues were stellar.  They had a ton of pre-recode ancestry, gorgeous coloring, and were showing powerhouses.  I had some of the highest conformations in the game, as well.  These Chincoteagues were amazing by almost all standards - except they were considered "over" bred and inbred, by the standards of the leading schools of thought in the game.  Back then, people weren't pushing back much, and there was little discussion about how huge Equine Center herds were affecting the economy.

And I allowed myself to be influenced.  I put them all up for sale, and the ones that didn't sell, I allowed to die of old age.  And I bought up huge herds of Equine Center horses, and spent (to me) vast quantities of real money to make them how I wanted them.

I could cry when I think of the horses I gave up.  These were descended from literally the first horses I bought when I started playing, back in 2015, before the recode.  They were irreplaceable.  But I believed they were poor quality, because that was what I was told.

It was only after I lost that herd that I really started to think it through.  There were so many complaints about the economy, and I started thinking about what might be causing such slow sales.  And I started to realize that those huge herds of Equine Center horses, picked through for the best ones, and the rest discarded, was one of the biggest culprits.  Why would anyone buy someone else's horse if they could get ten or twenty brand new ones for the same price?  The "perfect" herd was one that had no contact with anyone else who could possibly "sully" it, but that perfection came at the price of a stagnant horse market.

I regretted my initial decision to get rid of my herd.  I regretted it on so many levels.  But I had this new herd, and I had sunk so much real money into it.  I didn't know what to do.  So I took some time off.  I had lost all joy in playing the game.  I had horses I didn't want, and I didn't know what goals I should have.

I came back recently, and without knowing it, I had figured things out.  I dumped my entire Equine Center herd in the Rescue Center, and used my funds to comb through the Market, searching for sale horses that I thought would make good show horses.  I literally spent millions of dollars doing this.  

My new purpose for playing is two-fold:

1. Breed the best show horses I possibly can, using horses bought in the Market as much as possible, and

2. Encourage others who don't really care about "over" breeding and inbreeding that it is OK to do so, and there will be others who will cooperate with them.

For once, I feel happy and confident that, not only can I reach my personal goals, but I can do so in a way that contributes to healthy cooperation between players and an active horse market.

And that's how you bought almost every horse I had for sale, which were like around 30 trakehners xD Imagine my surprise when I tried to sell them for weeks and you bought almost every single one at once :D

All I care when I breed them are high stats and low ns stats. My stallions are overbred if I consider them good. They would be bred even more if I wouldn't focus on horses with higher stats when they turn 3.

I believe in the same things as you. Everyone here has a right to choose the way they play. As long as it's not affecting others.

Last edited on 2018-11-06 at 16:03:14 by Carin Ravensdale

Carin - exactly!  And I'm going to be having horses of my own heading out to Market before too long.  I haven't yet totally solidified in my head what my criteria is going to be for keeping or selling, but when I get that figured out, I'm going to have some good horses available.  

Your philosophy and mine seem pretty similar, which is why I found your sale horses up to my personal standards!  I've completely abandoned the high stats goal, myself.  They're so easy to raise during a horse's life, anyway.  Stats are the easiest part of the game, so I see no reason to get hung up on it when pursuing things that are harder to achieve, like low non-discipline specs or even conformation.  I know that's kind of heresy around here, but oh well.  You've got to break some heresies to make an omelet... or is that eggs?

Oh, and I don't want anyone to think that, if they happen to have an Equine Center herd, or have been breeding "clean" lines up until now, that they have to ditch their herd to embrace this breeding method.  I did it myself for personal reasons, but you can use foundation horses as... well... a foundation to start from, and that is perfectly fine as well.

Those of you who are thinking like me, how about we list the breeds/disciplines that we either already have to make available for sale, or would be looking for if we make the switch?

I think maybe we should specify if we have them to offer, or if we would be looking for them from others.

I'll start.

I have some of every breed in the game right now, but only one discipline each.  I will soon have horses from most/all of the breeds available to sell.

Here are my disciplines for each breed:

Akhal Tekes - Racing
Andalusians - Dressage
Appaloosas - Western
Arabians - Endurance
Chincoteagues - Show Jumping
Clydesdales - Driving
Dutch Warmbloods - Show Jumping
Fresians - Dressage
Gypsy Vanners - Driving
Lipizzaners - Dressage
Miniature Horses - Driving
Morgans - Western
Mustangs - Western
Paints - Western
Quarter Horses - Western
Shetland Ponies - Driving
Tennessee Walking Horses - Dressage
Thoroughbreds - Racing
Trakehners - Show Jumping
Welsh Ponies - Show Jumping

Right now, I am specifically looking for Western Mustangs with non-discipline stats under 60.  I don't care about anything else about them, just the non-discipline stats.

The rest of them, I am currently seeking horses with non-discipline stats under 50.

Anyone else?

@ Nittrous:

"But we need to be able to compromise and decide.  And then put forth the suggestion to Abbey."

Why not you start a topic to draft down an official suggestion/proposal?
we often have lengthy discussions but nobody make it official proposal. Perhaps, Abbey will do something about it once she see that the majority agree to it; 

NVM, I will just do that myself since I am bored.

Last edited on 2018-11-07 at 07:17:32 by Demon

Dutch Warmbloods - Dressage, Show Jumping, Driving
Friesians - Dressage
Lipizzaners - Dressage
Morgans - Driving, Western
Paints - Show Jumping 
Quarter Horses - Western 
Thoroughbreds - Western 

Some of my lines are quite young yet and I don't have horses available for breeding yet and don't have foals available yet. However all of my DWBs and QHs will soon have foals available for sale and I am open to public breedings for my stallions by request! :) 

Anyone else?  I know there are more out there, having spoken to them myself on occasion, and seen them in other threads.  I really would love to hear from anyone who believes that you can breed high quality horses without worrying about "over" breeding or inbreeding.  Whether you currently act on that belief, or would if you thought you could sell your horses.

I also would be interested in seeing if there would be interest in a club for those currently involved or interested in these breeding practices.

I just used the word "interest" in that sentence way too many times.

Anyway, I am getting close to having some horses to sale - possibly over the weekend.  Probably starting out with some foundation Fresians with non-discipline stats in the high 50's, because I went way overboard in snatching them up.  I may move them to a back-up account, as my sales account.  

I am also thinking of making a thread available in the sales forum for anyone selling horses of this type, where we can put up notifications.

Also would like to hear if anyone can think of a succinct description of this breeding practice, suitable for forum topic titles and such, so these posts will be more easily recognizable.

I'm personally leaning towards something that references heretics, since the idea of "over"breeding and inbreeding has become so heretical here.

Last edited on 2018-11-09 at 04:01:06 by Confessor