*Horse art modifications

You know, since you mentioned layering a more solid colour cream layer over the top, I did a bit of experimenting myself and just layered the Chestnut layer over Black, and it actually looks very similar to the images you posted:

(I used Dutch WB because it was the only file I had handy, I do realise it's a breed that doesn't have Silver)
https://prnt.sc/g253od

It gives it the lighter pigment for the silver but keeps it a rich dark brown with all the detail rather than dulling it by using a solid color, because the Chestnut base still has the detail of the coat in it.

Thoughts?

Edit: Okay picked a breed that actually has Silver, added the Chestnut base to lighten the black, then shoved Zz dapples on and Flaxen on top.  Is this more like it? https://prnt.sc/g255mj

Last edited on 2017-07-30 at 07:50:48 by Abbey

^ I like that better. Much nicer brown tones. I tried it myself and found the chestnut base at 10% opacity generally works on other base coats, with the exception of the very pale ones, e.g. smoky cream, perlino, etc, which it actually makes darker. Throwing in a white coat at 30% opacity in addition to the chestnut for just the double dilutes seemed to resolve this issue. The only other correction I would make is to change the colour of the dapples. White is a bit too stark, perhaps a pale yellow at high opacity? I don't know, and would recommend some experimenting.

Also, another small error I appear to have found: flaxen art for the gypsy vanners adds a bit of colour to their leg feathers for some reason. This issue appears to also affect paint horses. It's not a major issue, but something to keep in mind if you use the unmodified flaxen art to create a new silver layer.

Splashed white issues added. Essentially several images are just missing blue eyes.

Just a question, will horses ever have alternative patterns for a gene? Like the examples with ink spots and with regular tobiano, will there be different patterns for T+ and TT?

Fluff, that's a separate suggestion at the moment and is a low priority one.

Oh okay, thank you so much for clarifying!!

Hi, guys! I'm the artist. :) I'm working on foals now, hopefully accounting for all the issues you mentioned. I was wondering if you could find me proper examples of Frame Sabino and Frame Splash markings. We don't have many paint horses where I am, so I'm failry clueless there. 

As far as I'm aware, the only issue with the existing frame-splash markings is that some are missing blue eyes. I'm not sure what the frame-sabino issue is. Could you clarify?

Ah, it's not about the issue - I simply want to see a good example of the markings, because I actually can't find anything similar to what I've drawn when I googling.

Last edited on 2017-08-19 at 04:53:41 by Aaorin

I can't find anything with that combination at this point in time. At best I can find this, which is a genetically confirmed Splash White, but only a suspected Sabino 1 as well. that's not guaranteed though. It could be other things instead.


You should kinda be able to figure out what Splashed White + Sabino should look like based on what each does on its own, which in the absence of a genetically confirmed Splashed White + Sabino horse, I'd be willing to call 'good enough'.

Splashed White always causes blue eyes, so this is a must. It also creates bottom-heavy white markings with crisp edges, which makes the horse look like it's been dipped in white paint. The most minimal kind can just be some small socks, sometimes not even that. A moderate expression would cover all or almost all of the legs, and a small amount of the belly, similar to above, but with crisper edges. White facial markings are also common.

Sabino produces markings with very jagged edges, and often also produces large bottom-heavy blazes, socks, and belly spots, like the confirmed Sb1n below. Sometimes the edges of markings can be a little 'roany' or spotty.



As an example of how sabino interacts with other genes, consider the below horses, which are tobiano and (probably) also sabino. Their markings show all the typical characteristics of tobiano, except instead of having crisp edges they are very jagged, and they also have a blaze.




You may want to check out this article about sabino interacting with other genes.

Sometimes when two white genes appear together, there is also a 'boosting' effect, meaning a relatively large portion of the horse is white, and minimal markings are unlikely. I'm not sure if that's the case for Splash + Sabino, but it's plausible.

So from this is would be plausible that the typical traits of Splash + Sabino are
- white markings similar to a moderate expression of splashed white, probably covering legs and part of the belly
- jagged, uneven and/or spotty edge to markings
- blue eyes
- prominent blaze or other facial markings
So maybe have the typical medium-level Splash markings, give them a very jagged edge, add a sabino-like blaze, and blue eyes. Something like this?



*edit* here's another plausible Sabino + Splash: http://equinetapestry.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/sato1.jpg *edit 2* Nevermind, turns out's he's dominant white (W5).

Last edited on 2017-08-20 at 07:13:27 by UlyssesBlue

I'm not sure if it counts, but palomino in many breeds, for example trakheners, doesn't look natural. I generally like this coat colour, but with these breeds I try avoiding it. link It's more yellow than palomino. If you can prove me there are in reality such radioactive palominos, then ok, but this doesn't change the fact that these horses comparing with for example palomino morgans look weird. :C Morgans are not perfect too, but at least they're not 'radioactive'. link

Last edited on 2017-08-22 at 02:46:15 by sikora

Just picked through all the posts.

Aaorin, I'm essentially the resident genetics nerd so if you need any help, I can get you photos of tested horses for examples on how to make certain patterns or colors look more accurate. There's also a really helpful facebook group that I can send you to that can help out with accuracy (one of the admins is a Ph.D. in equine color genetics and works at a reputable laboratory).

That said - here are my thoughts on the ORIGINAL post.

Silver:
I agree. The art for silver has always bugged me. If nothing else, I'd love to see the body overlay to just go away... Dilution can range from hardly any visible difference in the body (VERY black horses with silvery manes/tails) to a decently visible difference (dark taupe legs and blonde mane/tail on a silver bay, for example). Also, may be interesting, silver and cream interact strangely. Cream tends to cancel silver out to varying degrees.

Grey w/Markings:
The current way it is is SOMEWHAT accurate to real life in that when a horse is fully greyed out, you typically cannot tell if it has white markings unless the horse is wet or possibly clipped. There could, though, be a subtle shift in shade between body and markings in the game.

Homozygous Sabino + White Markings:
Not in all cases, but yes, that is extremely typical of a homozygous sabino to be almost entirely white. Interestingly enough, frame seems to be a white INHIBITOR when paired with other pattern genes, while W20 is a white BOOSTER.

Tobiano:
Actually the phenotype in the game for tobiano in general is completely wrong. White markings just don't bulge out the way they do in the artwork. Generally, minimal tobianos do have four white legs (usually knee or higher). In Miniature Horses, minimal tobianos can have very little to absolutely no white (for some reason, Minis tend to defy a lot of genetics "rules"). Tobiano is also a complete dominant, so expression of white isn't dependant on zygosity. The art could be the exact same for heterozygous and homozygous and would still technically be accurate (but what fun is that? lol). Ink spots and haloing are NOT indicative of homozygous, contrary to popular belief. Plenty of heterozygous tobianos have them.

Sabino in Clydesdales:
This is true. Sabino is also NOT in Akhal Tekes, Appaloosas (unless crossed with specific QH lines), Arabians, Chincoteagues, or Thoroughbreds.

Dominant White:
Correct vernacular is now White Spotting. No legitimate genecitist uses "dominant white" anymore. It would be cool to have multiple white spotting mutations like in real life. Most are family-specific. Most white spotting mutations have a sabino-like expression and are almost never homozygous (that would require inbreeding). Most family-specific lines with near or fully-white horses are actually the family-specific mutation AND W20. W20, actually doesn't put any white on a horse at all by itself, even when homozygous. It acts solely as a white booster for other patterns.

Buckskin and Dun:
1. The only requirements for dun are peachy dilution and a dorsal stripe that runs down the entire length of the spine (including all the way through the center of the tail). All other primitives - face mask, cobwebbing, ear bars, shoulder stripes, leg barring, herringbone pattern, ventral stripe - are random hit or miss.

2. The only time leg barring would be seen in animals without dun would be with nd1 or unknown factors (sooty or other).

3. That seriously annoys me too XD

Frame Overo:
Yes they are very atypical in those breeds. In fact, the markings are very atypical for a horse that only has frame in general. Horses that have only frame with no other white patterns won't express much white pattern at all... maybe top-heavy face markings and few body patches. Frame requires other white pattern genes to express moderately, let alone loudly. I'm assuming the Shetlands we have in the game are American Shetlands and not the UK type, since frame is a new-world mutation and doesn't show up in breeds that weren't developed in the US.

Splash:
Splash absolutely does NOT always cause blue eyes. There are plenty of splash horses in real life that do not have blue eyes. The following are all tested splash horses with two brown eyes: Vaquila (Gotland mare)
Georgina (Welsh mare)
Halo (QH mare)
Magic (Morgan stallion)

A few more minor issues I've noticed lately:
- chestnuts are a bit too 'neon orange'. A quick fix would be to put a hue adjustment layer over top of that art to bring them into the red region. That would save having to manually recolour 20 images. Essentially they should be similar to the bays, but without the black points.
- some bays have a dusting of black over their back, which you generally only get from the sooty gene.
- stockings on front legs are a bit unusual, in that they have a pointy 'triangular' shape to them. This is usually only seen on stockings on the back legs. Front leg stockings tend to be more relatively horizontal, even if they still have quite irregular borders.
- some flaxen images affect the colour on the lower legs of the horse, not just the mane and tail. I'm pretty sure flaxen doesn't affect legs at all, so this can be easily fixed just by erasing that part of the image.

Last edited on 2017-09-03 at 22:08:28 by UlyssesBlue

The chestnut on Friesians needs to be changed for the reasons UlyssesBlue pointed out. The reason why I make a point of the friesians is because their shading is much, much harder than the rest of the breeds (assuming due to the rarity of chestnut in the breed, and the base image is meant to deal with a black coat). 

 


The shading and tone of this horse is much more appropriate. I agree with UB that the chestnut does need to be more red. The highlights need to be a bit more white, and the shading needs to be a bit more blue as well. Depending on the file, a simple colour correcting fix on the highlight and shadow layers can be applied. 

The breeds I have no issues with the chestnut are DWB, Gypsy (the mane is off though), Morgan, Paint, QH, and TB. 




EDIT: Alright, I can't get some of the images to show. Not sure why. Grah.

Last edited on 2017-09-05 at 11:24:33 by .: zonari

Okay, the problem I have with this being an ongoing topic is that at some point I've had to put what changes we want into words so that the artist and I can actually progress with making changes.  The first foal art has been finished since just before Vos' post, so I'm sorry Vos but everything you wrote has kind of been disregarded for at least one foal, if not 2 :\

I am putting a definite stop here otherwise we could be tweaking for years to come and would never see any more breeds be added because there's a backlog of art to catch up on.

Thank you all for your input.  If there are any big problems with the upcoming art that is to be released, please let us know as soon as possible and we will try to put it right.